[bksvol-discuss] Re: Bookshare & PQ submission & hyphenated words
- From: Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 23:25:35 -0700 (PDT)
Amy,
You bring up another point about the PQ books; do they have the hyphens at the
ends of lines when a word shouldn't be hyphenated? Volunteers put the halves of
the words together. IF the PQ books have them, is there a way you can eliminate
them when you read? Can you delete them before reading the way you would with a
downloaded volunteer-submitted book? Just curious.
Cindy
gtajalli@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> From: Amy Goldring Tajalli <agoldringtajalli@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Bookshare & PQ submission
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Saturday, August 9, 2008, 10:45 PM
> E & Laura Ann and others,I have had to rely more and
> more on the reader because although I do have enough vision
> to eye-read some books I cannot do so for long. When I do
> read with or without the reader, I would prefer an edition,
> wherever possible, that included maps, charts, pictures, all
> those things which the books I scan cannot include nor do
> the ones I download from Bookshare. I am grateful for the
> scanner's descriptions but if I could download
> Publisher's Quality books with all those things included
> I would be delighted. Having had to include
> "scanner's description" in books I have
> scanned I know how inadequate my descriptions are and only
> very few books with such descriptions are really good [with
> some really notable exceptions].
>
> Any PQ books I can download I am grateful for.
>
> One other note and an apology to all those with limited
> vision whom I previously criticized without understand:
> having recently had to rely on my reader and not my eyes, I
> understand and applaud any scanner and/or validater who
> takes the time to join the two halves of a hyphenated word
> divided by a page break. Even if I am able to have the
> reader not read the page headings I found the hyphenated
> words that were not really compound words very distracting
> and would sometimes have to go back and figure out what I
> had not quite understood. Since such divided words are
> dependent solely on the published version and vary from
> edition to edition based solely on when and where pages end,
> it is the publishers or their computers which insert those
> hyphens instead of somehow adjusting their programs to move
> the whole word to the next page instead of dividing it.
> Maybe with time I won't lose track so easily or at least
> not be annoyed but things which are strictly a question of
> an arbitrary computer need not, I now realize, be considered
> sacrosanct. My apologize to all.
>
> Maybe if the sighted, partially sighted, differently
> visually and/or physically disabled could communicate with
> each other with explanations and no ruffled feathers we
> could solve more problems or understand each other better.
> That old cliche about exceptions to rules might apply here.
>
> Amy
> omsm
>
>
> --
> It if be now, 'tis not to come,
> If it be not to come, it will be now,
> If it be now now, Yet it will come.
> The readiness is all.
> Wm. Shakespeare
> -------------- Original message from Laura Ann
> <agape.wellness.massage@xxxxxxxxx>: --------------
>
>
> > If it is publisher quality the tables and poetry are
> still there.
> > Its publisher quality.
> > So I do not understand why there is a concern that
> tables will be
> > lost since Daisy can handle tables can't it?
> >
> > Laura Ann
> >
> > At 06:23 PM 8/8/2008, you wrote:
> > >I totally agree with you Lori. And thanks for
> saying it so well.
> > >
> > >Bob
> > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori
> Castner"
> > >
> > >To:
> > >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 5:03 PM
> > >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Bookshare & PQ
> submission
> > >
> > >
> > >>Monica and others,
> > >>
> > >>I did not read Cindy's message as speaking
> for all of us, and the
> > >>message I am posting now speaks only for me.
> But in reality, all
> > >>of our comments on this matter are totally
> irrelevant because the
> > >>powers that be at Bookshare have already made
> the decisions:
> > >>publisher quality books will replace books in
> the collection
> > >>(unless some with pictcture descriptions can
> be preserved), and
> > >>more and more publishers will be providing
> books (which is great as
> > >>long as people don't mind the character of
> Bookshare changing)..
> > >>
> > >>I initially wrote my comments below last
> evening but put them in a
> > >>draft message as I believed they should sit
> for a while, but they
> > >>do voice my concerns.
> > >>
> > >>I'm going to say the first negative thing
> I've said on this list.
> > >>
> > >>All the points made about loss of chart table
> and poetry formatting are
> > >>crucial concerns.
> > >>
> > >>In addition, the loss of very wonderful
> detailed picture descriptions
> > >>provided by volunteers mainly in
> children's books but also in some adult
> > >>books is irreplaceable. I grew up without
> picture descriptions in my books
> > >>and their availability to blind children and
> adults today through bookshare
> > >>books is a true marvel.
> > >>
> > >>But, here is the negative part. I am very
> disappointed to know that the
> > >>hard work of many submitters and validators
> will be simply lost as publisher
> > >>books become a more prominent part of
> Bookshare. Hours and hours of work
> > >>simply gone; frankly, it feels like a
> corpporation taking over a small
> > >>company.
> > >>
> > >>I am sure many will disagree with me, but as
> Bookshare progresses in this
> > >>direction the work of volunteers will be less
> needed and the voice of those
> > >>who scann/submit books to shape the collection
> will become less important.
> > >>
> > >> From what I know of the formation of
> Bookshare, it was originally a vehicle
> > >>for many to submit books they had scanned so
> that other individuals could
> > >>access them. It was a grassroots movement
> sort of; as I see it, in a few
> > >>years it will no longer be that.
> > >>
> > >>True; we will have access to many more books,
> but users will have far less
> > >>say and volunteers will have far less work and
> value.
> > >>
> > >>Mind you, Bookshare will still be a good and
> worthwhile source of books,
> > >>but it won't be the same source. I may be
> alone in this concern, and maybe
> > >>I am wrong, but I doubt it.
> > >>
> > >>Cat Lover Lori
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Paula
> and James Muysenberg"
> > >>
> > >>To: "Bkvol"
> > >>Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 4:35 PM
> > >>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Bookshare &
> PQ submissions
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>these books contain charts or diagrams. I
> try to either format the charts
> > >>>so
> > >>>they will be understandable, keeping in
> mind that the Bookshare stripper
> > >>>removes tabs, or I put an explanation in
> brackets. I'm sure other
> > >>>submitters
> > >>>do similar things, all of which would be
> lost when the book is replaced.
> > >>> For the most part, I'm excited
> about publishers donating books to
> > >>>Bookshare, but I really think these other
> issues need to be addressed. I'm
> > >>>concerned that none of this seems to have
> been taken in consideration,
> > >>>when
> > >>>the contract with publishers was drawn up.
> > >>> The loss of picture descriptions in
> children's books especially
> > >>>troubles
> > >>>me, since some children's books
> don't
> > >>>make much sense without the pictures. When
> our oldest daughter was a
> > >>>toddler, someone gave us a couple of
> Frances books. The books never
> > >>>mention
> > >>>that Frances and her family are bears, and
> since I couldn't see the
> > >>>pictures, it was years before I found that
> out. I also didn't know for the
> > >>>longest that Clifferd is a huge, red dog.
> Oh the gaps that will be left in
> > >>>our
> > >>>education, without picture descriptions!
> > >>>X-archive-position: 18538
> > >>>X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
> > >>>Sender:
> bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>Errors-to:
> bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>X-original-sender:
> outofsightlife@xxxxxxxxx
> > >>>Precedence: normal
> > >>>Reply-to: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>List-help:
> > >>>List-unsubscribe:
> > >>>
> > >>>List-software: Ecartis version 1.0.0
> > >>>List-Id: bksvol-discuss
> > >>>X-List-ID: bksvol-discuss
> > >>>List-subscribe:
> > >>>List-owner:
> > >>>List-post:
> > >>>List-archive:
> > >>>X-list: bksvol-discuss
> > >>>
> > >>>Paula
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Mayrie ReNae"
> > >>>To:
> > >>>Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 5:33 PM
> > >>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Bookshare
> & PQ submissions
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Hi Carrie and Pavi,
> > >>>>
> > >>>>All that you say here I understand
> completely. There are, however,
> > >>>>a couple of cases in which replacing a
> truly excellent copy of a book
> > >>>>scanned and validated by conscientious
> volunteers would be, in my
> > >>>>opinion,
> > >>>>harmful to the Bookshare collection.
> Children's books that have had
> > >>>picture
> > >>>>descriptions and handwritten pages
> typed in by volunteers, and books of
> > >>>>poetry in which stanzas have been
> preserved would be of lower quality
> > >>>>from
> > >>>>the publishers. Obviously copies of
> childrens' books from the publisher
> > >>>>will not include picture descriptions.
> If handwriting is preserved in
> > >>>>the
> > >>>>text of publisher quality books as
> handwriting, , no screen reader will
> > >>>read
> > >>>>that. And finally, poetry that is not
> protected from having all of its
> > >>>>stanzas and lines run together is no
> longer poetry, but prose, which it
> > >>>was
> > >>>>not intended to be.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I understand that to keep your
> contract with publishers, you must
> > >>>>keep only their copies of books. That
> can't probably be changed. I do
> > >>>>think it is important to note that
> there will be in some few cases, some
> > >>>>important things lost by removing
> scanned copies of books from the
> > >>>Bookshare
> > >>>>collection. I doubt that there is
> anything that can be done. But this
> > >>>>is
> > >>>a
> > >>>>sad situation to me.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I would suggest that members grab any
> books whose quality might
> > >>>>suffer in ways that I have noted, and
> others that I haven't thought of,
> > >>>that
> > >>>>they want to read that might be
> replaced by publisher quality books now
> > >>>>before they are replaced.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Mayrie
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>-----Original Message-----
> > >>>>From:
> bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >>>>[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Pavi Mehta
> > >>>>Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 2:20
> PM
> > >>>>To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>Cc: Lisa Friendly
> > >>>>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Bookshare
> & PQ submissions
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Hi All,
> > >>>>
> > >>>>In the light of recent discussions on
> the list regarding Publisher
> > >>>>quality
> > >>>>submissions we wanted to send an email
> to all of you to clarify
> > >>>Bookshare's
> > >>>>position on this.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>While volunteers continue to be our
> primary source of books being put
> > >>>>into
> > >>>>the collection, upgrading books
> already in the collection continues to be
> > >>>>one of Bookshare's primary goals.
> Many volunteers have contributed
> > >>>>thousands of hours in improving books
> in the collection, and they do a
> > >>>great
> > >>>>job! But publishers have resources
> that allow them to create perfect
> > >>>copies
> > >>>>of books. Bookshare would like every
> single book in the collection to be
> > >>>>absolutely perfect, and this goal
> actually might be achievable if we can
> > >>>>convince publishers to donate e-book
> versions of their books. Many of the
> > >>>>Publisher Quality books that we
> receive are in perfect condition, but not
> > >>>>quite all at this point, as the
> technology is evolving in the publishing
> > >>>>industry.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>We need to encourage publishers to
> donate their books, since eventually
> > >>>they
> > >>>>will be donating ONLY perfect books.
> And wouldn't that be wonderful?
> > >>>Imagine
> > >>>>every single book in the collection
> being perfect! Currently it's a goal,
> > >>>>but someday, maybe not too far away,
> it might be possible to achieve it.
> > >>>>We know that thousands of volunteers
> have contributed hundreds of
> > >>>thousands
> > >>>>of hours of effort in putting books
> into the collection, and we
> > >>>acknowledge
> > >>>>that the vast majority of our books
> are in excellent condition. But
> > >>>>upgrading our books will always be a
> primary goal, and to that end, we
> > >>>will
> > >>>>replace current books with publisher
> quality books. It is also very
> > >>>>important for us to let our volunteer
> community know that this
> > >>>>replacement
> > >>>>policy is in fact a requirement of the
> contracts that we sign with the
> > >>>>publishing houses.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>To the extent possible, we will also
> inform the volunteers of the books
> > >>>that
> > >>>>publishers will be sending us, so as
> to not duplicate efforts. With every
> > >>>>batch of books that publishers send
> us, there are software changes
> > >>>required
> > >>>>in our processing of their books, so
> the books are currently being added
> > >>>to
> > >>>>the collection in at a fairly slow
> trickle. But we are pretty optimistic
> > >>>>that in the near future, the speed of
> donating books and processing them
> > >>>>will increase. Our mandate from the US
> Department of Education is to put
> > >>>>100,000 new books into the collection
> in 5 years. We have no doubt that
> > >>>>we
> > >>>>will meet that goal, especially with
> all the Publisher Quality books that
> > >>>we
> > >>>>are being given by the
> forward-thinking publishers who are so generous
> > >>>with
> > >>>>their time, efforts and books. Huge
> thanks to O'Reilly, HarperCollins,
> > >>>>Scholastic, and other publishing
> houses and to all of you as we continue
> > >>>to
> > >>>>grow the collection as a team.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Carrie Karnos and Pavi Mehta
> > >>>>Bookshare.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> To unsubscribe from this list send a
> blank Email to
> > >>>>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>>put the word 'unsubscribe' by
> itself in the subject line. To get a list
> > >>>of available commands, put the word
> 'help' by itself in the subject line.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32
> Antivirus, version of virus
> > >>>signature database 3338 (20080807)
> __________
> > >>>>
> > >>>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32
> Antivirus.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>http://www.eset.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>To unsubscribe from this list send a blank
> Email to
> > >>>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>put the word 'unsubscribe' by
> itself in the subject line. To get a list
> > >>>of available commands, put the word
> 'help' by itself in the subject line.
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message ----- From:
> "Monica Willyard"
> > >>To:
> > >>Cc: "Pavi Mehta" ; "Lisa
> Friendly"
> > >>Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 1:08 PM
> > >>Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Bookshare &
> PQ submission
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Hi, Cindy. No one likes to have their time
> wasted or see what they
> > >>>worked on replaced. Having said that, a
> large number of books
> > >>>currently in the collection are nowhere
> near perfect. Keeping them for
> > >>>the sake of preserving someone's time
> isn't fair to the members of
> > >>>Bookshare both because it would create
> confusion when someone is
> > >>>searching for books and because we
> don't enjoy reading messed up books
> > >>>unless we have no other choice. Even books
> rated excellent aren't
> > >>>usually letter perfect, and a significant
> number have some serious
> > >>>issues.
> > >>>
> > >>>Cindy, you have the ability to grab a book
> from your library or
> > >>>bookstore and read it whenever you want
> to. You never have to worry
> > >>>about scannos, and you don't have the
> distraction of hearing non-words
> > >>>spoken in almost every paragraph. Yet you
> are the loudest voice asking
> > >>>for Bookshare to keep scanned books when a
> publisher-quality book is
> > >>>available. Yes, you may validate carefully
> from the print copy, and
> > >>>that's wonderful. You are not in the
> majority though, and Bookshare
> > >>>can't just keep books processed by you
> while getting rid of everyone
> > >>>else's. All of us here have put our
> money, time, and energy into
> > >>>preparing books for people to read. Yet we
> do this knowing that
> > >>>someone could come along and do a BSO of
> our book at any time. In this
> > >>>case, the publisher is doing a BSO, and
> who is more qualified to
> > >>>provide it than the publisher?
> > >>>
> > >>>You send your emails copied to Lisa and
> Pavi and would seem to speak
> > >>>for us. You don't speak for many of us
> because you don't have any
> > >>>concept of what it's like to have
> scanned books as your only source
> > >>>for reading material. If Bookshare had a
> magic button where they could
> > >>>replace every book with a perfect
> publisher quality version, I would
> > >>>celebrate and send the staff some
> champagne. There are a small number
> > >>>of books with hand-written picture
> descriptions that might be
> > >>>replaced, and you could contact Bookshare
> about those. There are
> > >>>literally thousands of books in the
> Bookshare collection that are
> > >>>barely legible right now. They would
> become a pleasure to read if
> > >>>replaced. Teachers want extremely clean
> scans for their students to
> > >>>read. The PQ books provide that and
> benefit adult readers as well. I
> > >>>just hope they will expand the program and
> that other publishers will
> > >>>work with Bookshare in the future.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>--
> > >>>Monica Willyard
> > >>>Visit my blog at
> http://www.scannersguild.com
> > >>>To unsubscribe from this list send a blank
> Email to
> > >>>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>put the word 'unsubscribe' by
> itself in the subject line. To get
> > >>>a list of available commands, put the word
> 'help' by itself in the
> > >>>subject line.
> > >>
> > >>To unsubscribe from this list send a blank
> Email to
> > >>bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself
> in the subject line. To get a
> > >>list of available commands, put the word
> 'help' by itself in the subject line.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >>Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus
> Database: 270.5.12/1599 -
> > >>Release Date: 8/7/2008 8:49 PM
> > >>
> > >
> > >To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
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> >
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