[bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted
- From: "Gerald Hovas" <geraldhovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 00:02:58 -0600
Sarah,
Sorry, I should have made it clearer that the examples from the submitted
books come from the files I uploaded for submission. They are the last line
of text and the running footer on one page and the first line of text on the
following page in the RTF files that I uploaded. Both of the books I
scanned have the page numbers in the running footers and the book's title
and author alternating in the running headers. In both instances, I
manually stripped the headers from the scan prior to submission.
You bring up a good point. How do Bookshare's tools treat books with no
blank line at the top and bottom when the page numbers are in the running
headers. I haven't actually tried that test since I assumed it would not
make any difference, but I did not notice that the tools had moved the page
numbers from the bottom of the page to the top until I took a closer look at
the results for these two books. As you saw, the page numbers were
processed by the Stripper and were then, at a later time, added back to the
top of the page when the HTML file was created.
Looking back again at the RTF and HTML files for the first book I submitted,
it appears as if this might not be an issue when there is no text on the top
line of the page. As you can see from the bottom of page 40 and the top of
page 41 in the RTF file, page 41 contains an unprotected chapter heading.
-----
Homeless looked at him without blinking. ?Lord, have mercy.?
40
[Page Break]
CHAPTER TWO
Lost
BUT WHO WOULD HAVE SENT ME A MICROWAVE?? he wanted to
-----
Since the chapter heading was stripped due to it not being protected, there
was no text on the first line of the page, and the bug did not occur.
-----
Homeless looked at him without blinking. ?Lord, have mercy.?
41
Lost
BUT WHO WOULD HAVE SENT ME A MICROWAVE??he wanted to
-----
I think I'll try no blank lines at the top and bottom of pages in the book
I'm currently working on since the page numbers in this validation are in
the running headers.
I'll go out on a limb and guess that, based on what I've been seeing, the
following would occur.
-----
last line of text on page 99
[Page Break]
100
First line of text on page 100
-----
would produce
-----
last line of text on page 99
100
First line of text on page 100
-----
It will be interesting to see if my prediction is correct. Based on only
113 correct picks from the 176 NFL football games that have been played this
season, my odds aren't that good. <Smile>
Gerald
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Sarah Van
Oosterwijck
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:17 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted
Ah, exactly what i mean about taking for ever to write so that I don't
confuse anyone.
Notice that I stated that the number of blank lines "before" a header don't
matter, and that the number of lines "after" a footer don't matter.
Now if you read that very carefully, is that true?
So that I am sure I am not confused, which certainly happens, did you
remove page headers, but leave in page numbers? How was the original
formatted exactly? I am not sure if the first example you gave was from
what you submitted or from the DAISY copy of the book.
If it was your original I would take that to mean that page numbers were at
the bottoms of pages, thus no page number at the top of page ten. The page
number at the top of page ten would then be the DAISY tag, which is always
placed at the top of pages in the HTML files. I would also deduce that
anytime we start a page with text instead of a blank line there will be a
problem in the HTML copy, which I would consider really annoying. Of
course books with page numbers exclusively at the tops of pages won't cause
problems.
Thanks for letting us know that placing page numbers on blank pages really
is useful for the system as well as the validators. Any little piece of
understanding we can get on how the system works helps improve books.
Sarah Van Oosterwijck
Assistive Technology Trainer
http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Hovas" <geraldhovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:49 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted
> Blank lines are meaningful to the Bookshare tools, but at some point it's
> possible that additional blank lines are being discarded. They may be
> lost
> when the file is converted to the intermediate file format (possibly XML)
> which is used to create both the DAISY and BRF books.
>
> The reason I say blank lines aren't meaningless is because of what I have
> noticed happening in the HTML file which can be unpacked along with the
> DAISY files.
>
>
> Here is an example of a page from the first book I submitted which does
> not
> have blank lines at the top and bottom. The text comes from the bottom
> of
> page 9 and the top of page 10. As you can see, I stripped the header.
> All
> of the headers came out garbled because, from what my Wife said, they
> were
> in a smaller, thinner font and printed in green.
>
> ----------
>
> like a freight train, and somebody in it talkin' on a phone."
>
> 9
> [Page Break]
> She turned to the small crowd that had rushed out of the Main
>
> ----------
>
>
> Now, here is the same text in the HTML file.
>
> ----------
>
> like a freight train, and somebody in it talkin' on a phone."
>
> 10 She turned to the small crowd that had rushed out of the Main
>
> ----------
>
>
> The Stripper recognized the page number for page 10 properly, but when
> the
> page number in the tag was added back to page 10 in the HTML file, it was
> attached to the front of the first paragraph on that page.
>
>
> Now here's an example from the second book I submitted which had a blank
> line at the top and bottom of the page. As you can see, I've stripped
> the
> header again.
>
> ----------
>
> and the word spreading through the Grill like so much
>
> 11
>
> [Page Break]
>
> wildfire, and spilling out the door and up Main Street
>
> ----------
>
>
> Now here's that same text from the HTML file.
>
> ----------
>
> and the word spreading through the Grill like so much
>
> 12
>
> wildfire, and spilling out the door and up Main Street
>
> ----------
>
>
> This time the page number from the DAISY tag was placed on a line by
> itself
> rather than attaching it to the first paragraph. Again you can see that
> the
> page number is moved to the top of the page because of the way the tools
> process page numbers.
>
> Granted two examples aren't much evidence to go on, especially when
> someone
> else validated the two books, but I've seen the problem with page numbers
> in
> many HTML files, and none of the books I've worked on have this problem
> other than my first book which doesn't contain a blank line at the top
> and
> bottom of each page. Unless someone can provide an example where not
> having
> the blank line at the top and bottom of the page doesn't cause the error,
> I'll continue to believe that the lack of the blank lines is the reason
> for
> the page number bug.
>
> Gerald
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Sarah Van
> Oosterwijck
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 3:53 PM
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted
>
>
> Blank lines are meaningless to the bookshare system. You could put 0
> blank
> lines before and after the page number or dozens and the system would
> view
> it the same way. The first and last lines on a page are considered
> possible headers or footers no matter their placement.
>
> A header is the first single line of text on a page followed by a blank
> line.
>
> A footer is the last single line of text on a page when it is preceded by
> a
> blank line.
>
> The number of blank lines before a header or after a footer don't matter.
>
> The header or footer is stripped if (1) it is a page number, (2) it is
> text
> that repeats on several other pages.
>
> Page numbers currently only appear in DAISY books when read with the
> right
> software, but in the future, BookShare has informed this list, that will
> most likely change. They have indicated that they want to improve access
> so that braille readers and users of other software might see the page
> numbers as well. We just don't know when or how this will be
> accomplished.
>
> I have started working on a tip about this, but I am always trying to be
> too thorough, and I try to write in a way that won't confuse. The result
> is that I am very slow.
>
> Sarah Van Oosterwijck
> Assistive Technology Trainer
> http://home.earthlink.net/~netentity
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 2:53 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: opinions on blank pages wanted
>
>
>> Pratik,
>>
>> Is there any danger that by having the page number on
>> the new line right after the page break that it will
>> be deleted by the stripper? I've been leaving a blank
>> line before and after my page numbers, whether they
>> appear on the top or the bottom of the page--likewise,
>> before the page's text. IS this not necessary?
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>>>
>>> At the top of the blank page write the pae nmber and
>>> press enter twice. So
>>> your page would appears as follows.
>>>
>>> Page break
>>> page number
>>> new line
>>> new line
>>> page break
>>>
>>> This will allow the pagination to continue.
>>>
>>> Pratik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pratik Patel
>>> Director, CUNY Assistive Technology Services (CATS)
>>> The City University of New York
>>> pratik.patel@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _____
>>>
>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>>> Behalf Of Estelnalissi
>>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 11:46 PM
>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] opinions on blank pages
>>> wanted
>>>
>>>
>>> ~Hello Everyone,
>>>
>>> Sometimes in the book I'm validating there's a blank
>>> page after a chapter.
>>> Page breaks are there one just below the other. I've
>>> been placing a blank
>>> line under the page break, writing, blank page on
>>> the second line and
>>> leaving another blank line beneath. I thought the
>>> stripper might delete my 2
>>> words.
>>>
>>> The other question is whether you think I should
>>> write a page number on the
>>> page. That's an oxymoron if ever there was one,
>>> because the blank page would
>>> now contain the words blank page and after a skipped
>>> line, a page number.
>>> Some blank, huh?
>>>
>>> In the book, that blank doesn't have a printed
>>> number, but it has been taken
>>> in to account on the following page where the
>>> chapter begins. for example,
>>> last page of chapter is 80, blank page, first page
>>> of next chapter is 82.
>>>
>>> I'm asking because I have this bleary notion we're
>>> supposed to account for
>>> all pages. I'm afraid if I don't write a notice
>>> that there's a blank page
>>> and assign it's number, the uploading program might
>>> think I've left pages
>>> missing.
>>>
>>> Is that extra page break enough to account for the
>>> blank page?
>>>
>>> I've been using my judgment on this detail, but
>>> wonder what the rest of you
>>> do or if there's a right way to process these blank
>>> pages.
>>>
>>> Thank you in advance.
>>>
>>> Always With Love,
>>>
>>> Lissi
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
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