Dear Stephen,
Family,race culture,nationality...it just might be that the thickness of the
akashic field left post the change in location is a function of the degree of
suffering or trauma experienced there and the degree to which bonding occurred
in that experience ..death threat builds powerful bonds that endure over time.
From that standpoint,remember the Alamo, Remember Idi Amin etc. Remember
Hiroshima,function as fields depending upon how thickly we were and hence are
in them. When death ends love the degree one stays"in the death"
is a function of the amount of bonding that transpired in the 2 object relation
interactions. Thus there are for example Merry Widows and others who stay
connected in the death connection.
Edward Almaas,Long Journey Home just might be relevant here.J
On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Stephen Campbell wrote:
Enneapsychodramatics
Dr.Joseph M. Pirone 2018033080
On Thursday, January 22, 2009, at 08:59AM, "Stephen Campbell"
<coachuno@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Chris and David,
Thank you for this thread. It is having me think on a deeper systemic level
and thus appreciate the subtleties which lie therein.
Chris, you mentioned that people don't normally move across the globe to get
away from a job. And, I would agree with that; though as you say they will
change physical environment for issues such as family, culture, nationality,
race and politics. What are your thoughts about the "move to somewhere else"
to get away from the lover? Is the systemic effect or bond dependent on the
level of intimacy? the level of group consciousness?
In a family, as I understood your post, you land in a specific soul
consciousness and have little choice in the matter. I guess the same could
be said about, race, culture, nationality and to some degree politics if you
are born in a dictatorial or police state. In an organization or a
relationship ( friendship, lover, marriage) you are at choice whether you
participate or not. So that the mere factor of choice to join or not becomes
the key differentiator.
I would welcome your thoughts and those of any who would like to comment.
Fondly,
Stephen
Stephen Campbell
MA, R.Sc.P., MPNLP (Health), ND (Candidate)
904.430.0248
888.303.2636
51.1.447.6652
51.1.995.512.315
coachuno@xxxxxxxxx
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 05:52, Chris Walsh <chrisjwalsh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
Hi David
Thanks for engaging with this theme.
I agree with all of your observations, although I must say that the deep
bonding of individuals with the organisations of their workplace is much
less these days with constant restructuring and people moving jobs much
more
regularly. That however does not affect the level of systemic bonding which
occurs at a deeper soul level.
I don't think we can get past the actual facts here. We are all born into
families, pre-existing soul units formed by nature outside of our voluntary
control except for the voluntary act of sexual intercourse between a man
and
a woman. That is a fact . No other human organisation is formed in this
way.
I have often chatted with people who have moved from one side of the planet
to the other in a futile attempt to get away from their family. It is
futile because their family is always with them. They just can't shake them
off. They can't forget about them. This is an unfortunately common
experience. A similar experience with work organisations is much much
rarer.
While organisational bonds can be deep, meaningful and powerful just like
friendship bonds they can be and often are broken, often quite easily.
People very rarely move to the other side of the planet because they can't
cope with a job and are trying to forget it. They do move to get away from
family or country quite commonly and as I said it is doomed to fail at a
soul level. Remember nations and cultural groups are something between the
organic systems of families and the humanly made organisations such as the
workplace.
The difference between family bonds and organisational bonds is similar to
the difference between family bonds and non sexual friendship bonds. Unless
there is an existential bonding like risking your life to save someone
else's then the friendship just does not enter into the deeper family
soul/system. That is why friends hardly ever have an important role in
family constellations. The friendships interact with the family in day to
day life just like people's family systems interact with their works
systems
as you correctly point out. Nonetheless they are largely independent
systems.
There is also a greater soul and at that level everything is totally
interdependent but that is another story. That is why we need to be clear
which system we are talking out and at what level that system operates.
Otherwise our thinking becomes very muddled. I suspect it is partly because
people find this sophisticated process of shifting perspective
overwhelming,
that they turn slogans that are meant to help guide us into commandments
that can oppress us and shutdown our ability to see what is happening right
in front of our eyes. When used this way slogans give a false sense of
security - just like George Bush's "you're either with us or against us"
I agree with you that everything has an effect. I believe the
differentiation between family and other organisations is important in
stopping us from inappropriately applying observations made in families to
other organisations. We need to ask ourselves:
. What are these effects?
. How long do they last?
. How deep are these effects in the system?
Aside from cultures and countries I think it is very clear that these
effects run deeper and endure much longer in most families than they do in
most organisations.
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
webpage: <http://www.cwalsh.com.au> www.cwalsh.com.au
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>]
On Behalf Of
david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <david%40innersuccess.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, 22 January 2009 4:17 PM
To: constellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<constellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Organisations and Families
From David Mathes
Chris, you said.
"They forget that organisations which are systems constructed by
humans are different to families which are naturally occurring systems
that we are born into. It is useful to reflect that cultural groups
like nationality are something in between. People forget that you
really can't leave your family EVER. That is your family and that is
that. However we join and leave organisations all the time. So the
principles about "exclusion" reflect that substantial difference in
these two different types of systems. People leave organisational
systems without someone else having to represent them. People can even
be evicted from organisations without someone having to represent
them if it is done appropriately."
Chris maybe its what you have noticed in your work, but for me it?s
too absolute. I think what I see in Constellations is something
different, not so neatly structured. I do most of my work with
organisations, but that can vary from banks, to schools, to therapy
associations, to the environment. There is a multitude of different
organisations. Because organisations are made up of humans, usually I
guess, they can also be seen as naturally occurring organisms. In fact
the Constellation space is a great space to see the Organisational
Organism re-organise, when a change is made, such as the boss leaving
or the impact of the financial crisis etc.
Also, in my work, I include quite a few exercises about joining and
leaving organisations and its not as clear cut as we would like. It is
natural for bonds to form and its natural for people to project their
family life onto their work life. Sometimes most of my work is helping
people see these projections. I think that is an important part of our
work, to help raise awareness of these blind impulses.
So, even if someone leaves under very good circumstances it can still
feel like losing a loved one. I had a good lesson years ago when I
worked in a factory. An old man operated a pretty bad machine, it way
always breaking down, after 17 years of complaining about it we
replaced it and as we wheeled the machine out the man put his hand on
it and wept. I don?t think I will ever forget that.
Bertold Ulsamer says that one of the orders of love is that everyone
has a right to their feeling and emotions. Organisations are terribly
tangled places, where often these feeling aren?t allowed. It makes me
think that often these pent up feelings are taken home and fuel road
rage or domestic violence etc.
I worked with a group of therapists recently and we listed all the
systems they were a part of, and then we listed the systems the client
had. The therapist in their role had double what the client had.
Organisations are very complex places, which constellations can help
untangle, so I think we need to be careful with absolutes. Even if
someone leaves in a good way, it can still have an effect on the
organisational system, and that is OK. And in that way we see that
all systems are very natural and everything has an effect.
Cheers.
David Mathes, Melbourne and Guangzhou
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