RE: FORGIVENESS [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 1963

From: "gary stuart" <Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 23:52:53 -0800

Alternate view of forgiveness.....

Can we be small in the eyes of fate and destiny.. if we can accept its place in
our life with a Greater love for life than the events that we are forced to
make lemonade out of we have a way out.

If we choose to be BIGGER than the negative event then Superiority sets in and
we actually victimize ourselves more than the actual perpetrator did?

This way we embody Perpetrator and Victim inside our soul perhaps with no way
out? Detaching from it in a smaller humble Accepting way seems more healing?
More questions than answers...

I NEVER try to negate anyone's experience, pain or trauma.  Let's try to find a
way out and leave it behind.....ALL for the good of the client...

Remember LIFE'S mission or goal appears to move forward and grow
strong.....'til departure.

Some extra thoughts for this great thread... Blessings Gary Stuart LA, CA
Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx & www.chifield.com

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Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 1963

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Messages In This Digest (3 Messages)

1.1.

Re: Transcending Forgiveness through Acceptance by Gary Stuart From: Michael
Reddy

2.1.

Re: Rape From: Dan Booth Cohen, PhD

2.2.

Re: Rape From: Leslie Nipps

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1.1.

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Re: Transcending Forgiveness through Acceptance by Gary Stuart

Posted by: "Michael Reddy"
<mailto:michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Transcending%20Forgiveness%20through%20Acceptance%20by%20Gary%20Stuart>
michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx    <http://profiles.yahoo.com/michaeljreddy>
michaeljreddy

Tue Feb 7, 2012 5:47 am (PST)

Hello Sneh, Kay, Joe, and All,

Thank you for your intriguing thoughts regarding the post on different
common-language meanings of "forgive." They prompt in me a couple of
responses.

Kay, your first letter, if I understand it correctly, suggests leaving
the term "forgiveness" out of constellation work because of its
confusing nature. This makes some sense to me in so far as it is part
of what is called a "semantic pathology." Those happen when the same
word means two different things in the same context which are very
important to distinguish. So, pardoning someone is very different
from simply accepting that an offense happened and letting go of it.
It would be much better if English had not lumped these two senses
into the same word.

The flip side of this pathology is apparent in "I'm sorry." How many
times have you said "Gee I'm so sorry about that..." and heard the
immediate reply: "Oh that's OK, it wasn't your fault at all." You
intended SORRY1 <sympathize with an unfortunate plight>, but the other
person heard SORRY2 <I admit I did you wrong in causing your
unfortunate plight>. Maybe this is confined to US usage, I'm not sure
about that.

The only thing, though, Kay, for me, is that I feel that clients come
into the work using common language and I can't prevent that. So I
fall back, as Sneh suggested in her post--on listening very carefully
for what sense or senses of the words are present in the client's
sentences, tone, body language, and so on. On the other hand, as you
suggest, we can banish some of this everyday confusion by careful
explanations in advance.

Joe, it's probably just my reading of your words, but I didn't mean to
suggest in my post that German was somehow limited or at fault. It's
simply that the primary meanings of words in different languages have
evolved via analogies and metonymies and even accidental associations
to group very differently. For instance, in English we have the
problematic association of "constellation" with astrology. No
difficulty in German with that. However, I have heard one Native
speaker complain that the German equivalent of "constelation," which
is "aufstellung," had different unfortunate other meanings for them
also.

And yes, Joe, I've been interested in the Whorf-Sapir hypothesis since
graduate school. I felt I gathered some evidence for it in the work I
did on the conduit metaphor (see Wikipedia "conduit metaphor if
interested).

Finally, Kay, I can agree that constellations in one manner transcend
"meaning" completely. I think Hunter was also trying to say something
like that at the US conference (his talk is also in the current issue
of TKF) by talking about two ways of understanding them. In the
broadest context, not only constellations, but everything is
"meaningless." Meanings are restrictions we put on events and they
always leave a great deal out. At the same time, I try to be careful
about keeping track of how broad the context is in which I am
operating and speaking.

Bert, it seems to me, in his later methods, has moved into broader and
broader contexts. But Patrick just posted here about a case where he
felt it necessary to drop back to the narrower classic family
constellation to work. So, I agree with you in the broadest context,
but still want to be able to speak and write and work in narrower ones
where specific meanings are important.

Best,
Michael

Michael Reddy, PhD, CPC, ELI-MP
<mailto:michael%40reddyworks.com> michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.reddyworks.com
Holistic Health & Happiness

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On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Joe Pirone wrote:

Michael ,very trenchant analysis.I sense you are spot on regarding
German and its linguistic limits. You might find the Sapir Whorf
hypothesis spot on. Best,Joseph Pirone
On Feb 4, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Kay Needham wrote:

Dear Michael,
I have not read such a clear and insightful writing on forgiveness
that demonstrates exactly why this word is best left in the
confusing context where it takes root. Does forgiveness include
love? Does love have any relevant uses in victim perpetrator
dynamics?
Kind regards
Sadhana

________________________________
From: Michael Reddy < <mailto:michael%40reddyworks.com>
michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.%20com> " <
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Transcending Forgiveness through
Acceptance by Gary Stuart

Dear Gary, and All,

It is typical of me that, despite admiring, understanding, and
agreeing with your eloquent essay on Forgiveness versus Acceptance--I
remain troubled by what seems to be a discrepancy between ordinary
usage of US English and a somewhat narrower meaning that seems to
take
over in constellation work. So first of all, thank you for posting
the essay, and then, here's what comes up for me.

In general, words have a number of senses, or primary meanings. It is
always risky to assume too quickly that we know which one or more are
intended when a person utters a sound or scratches marks on a page.
In particular, the word "forgive" has at least three relevant uses in
the perpetrator-victim context.

FORGIVE1 <to pardon a person for an offense> "I forgive you for
stealing my wallet"
FORGIVE2 <to give up all claim to restitution or repayment> "I
forgave that debt already"
FORGIVE3 <to cease to feel resentment against> "It's generally best
to forgive your enemies"

To my mind, while FORGIVE1 <pardon> falls clearly into the
problematic, self-important stance we constellators speak of,
FORGIVE2
slips away from it, and FORGIVE3 <let go resentment> comes very close
to what we mean by "acceptance."

People may say, well, Michael is being too logical and "left-brained"
here. But in fact, the whole re-characterization of "forgiveness" in
terms of systemic hierarchy, self-importance, and doubling of burden
on the victim requires, even though true, quite a bit of "left brain"
work to grasp. Especially for someone used to the various, more
loosely employed meanings normally associated with "forgive."

I guess there are two points here perhaps worth considering. First,
this goes back to earlier discussions here about our community using
common terms somewhat preemptively in ways that are quite contrary to
everyday usage. Do we get in our own way by not showing more respect
for how much the larger language community is likely to be confused
by
this? Can we not talk about re-languaging without questions being
raised about understanding and group loyalty?

And second, if a client in a constellation spontaneously says "Oh, I
do forgive you" to a perpetrator, I at least want to be listening as
carefully as I can for which nuance (either FORGIVE1 <pardon> or
FORGIVE3 <let go resentment>, or some combination) is intended.
Because it seems to me there are occasions when this statement
signifies very much the acceptance we wish to foster, and others
where
it resonates with the self importance we want to discourage. Maybe
the client means simply, "You know what, I accept that you did this
and am not holding on to it." And even if it's the problematic
FORGIVE1 <pardon> that's intended, I'd still be somewhat careful
about
launching into a whole left-brain explanation of the distinction in
the middle of a constellation. Maybe I would--or maybe I'd let it
pass and talk about it later. A lot would depend.

I haven't had time to look into this, but I keep wondering of some of
these confusing usages come from the different senses and nuances
involved with the original German words. In general, from language to
language, word senses and their nuances are not grouped around words
in the same ways at all.

Best,
Michael
Michael Reddy, PhD, CPC, ELI-MP
<mailto:michael%40reddyworks.com> michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.reddyworks.com
Holistic Health & Happiness

DIAL IN TO OUR FREE, WEEKLY, QUESTION & ANSWER
TELECONFERENCE--THE CONSTELLATION CALL
Q&A on Family Constellations and Coaching
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Messages in this topic (28)

2.1.

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Re: Rape

Posted by: "Dan Booth Cohen, PhD"
<mailto:danboothcohen@xxxxxxxxx?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rape>
danboothcohen@xxxxxxxxx    <http://profiles.yahoo.com/bunnywhoo> bunnywhoo

Tue Feb 7, 2012 4:58 pm (PST)

Hi Patrick –

I read the many responses to your original post with fascination. In
responding, I inadvertently sowed confusion suggesting that women who had many
children were all coerced. Chris Walsh and Hania Moser gently pointed out the
folly of this assertion. It was actually the opposite of my intended point,
which is that a woman who is sexually assaulted today stands at the front of a
line of countless mothers and daughters who have suffered traumas at the hands
of men. Suggesting that rape means this or that or is the result of this or
that is simplistic. What helps in my experience is to avoid commentary and
analysis in favor of establishing good contact with the love and support of
these ancestors.

Your story of Bert Hellinger’s Louisville training stirs me. I attended his
Washington DC workshop for cancer patients and the couples weekend the
following year. After one, there was a special training day for facilitators
which was legend. In retrospect, what I most strongly recall from those events
were the outrageous statements and actions. I suspect other CT readers who were
there share those memories.

If it were not for Hellinger, his brilliance and generosity, I would not be a
Family Constellations facilitator. It is my calling and passion. I am deeply
indebted to him for teaching me and offering me incredible gifts. Many clients
I sit with report their Constellation is a turning point in their lives. I
thank him with deep gratitude.

And, I have seen him do and say things that accumulated into such great
distaste that I could no longer tolerate to attend his events. This was all
before his divorce and re-marriage. I know quite a number people who fell into
a state of despair after their experiences with him. One, who he called a
murderer in front of a large audience, cried daily for years afterwards.

We all cause harm in attempts to help. We all fail at times. There is no
avoiding that. Keep an open heart, a clear mind, a good intention. Be fearless
when courage is demanded and fearful when you wake in the night and smell
smoke. Good feedback from clients is an valid indicator of your ability. Trust
the field to support and guide you.

Dan

From:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Patrick McNally
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 6:54 PM
To:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape

Daniela and All,

Having begun this thread and read with interest and gratitude each response,
I'd like to share my impressions so far:

I'm pleased to have opened the conversation to be able to see clearly my own
immaturity as a facilitator, humbled by the deep insights, intelligence and
skill reflected in the responses. Having only facilitated a few workshops and
private sessions in the past three years, I am clearly not ready to take on
trauma of this nature and might do more harm that good.

It also seems clear that in this case a woman would best handle the issue, not
a man (at lease not me). Therefore, I intend to refer this young woman to a
local facilitator (a woman) who has much more experience and can likely promote
positive movement, maybe over several sessions as some have suggested.

Although I often trust my intuitive nature, and have received very good
"feedback" from those attending my few workshops, there are severe limits. I
recall in Louisville when Bert Hellinger split us into groups to practice
facilitating, and the issue brought before me was a life threatening cancer. It
confused me terribly, and the constellation was in all respects a failure. I
felt awful about it. Then someone who was in that group asked Hellinger if we
could do harm, reflecting to me, and he said "yes." I fell into a state of
despair, but then went myself to Hellinger (all of this before the larger
group) and asked something to the effect "If we don't try how are we to learn?"
He was very kind, realizing my state of mind, and offered up something
contradictory to the idea that we must not go in a direction of harm, but
rather try. Of course we know that Bert responds to the moment, not in
generalizations, and that answer was specific to
me. Later he took on that same woman with cancer and her issue would not move
by the "Spirit-Mind" work he was teaching us, and he reverted to the "Classic
Constellation" approach which did have a good effect. For some reason, that
woman's issue was, in fact, confusing when taken on in the ways of Hellinger's
newer insights, at least then in 2007.

As for my fear, I'm open to ideas suggested that might help us as facilitators
deal with the various levels of fear that may arise. I'm still ruminating why
the fear came up for me in this case, and will continue to look. For now I can
let it go and refer appropriately.

My deepest thanks to all for your responses and time.

Patrick

________________________________
From: " <mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> " <
<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> >
To:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:35 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape

Hello Patrick,
I was participant and one time representant in the case of 2 or 3
constellations about rapts. And I made myself one constellation about this kind
of trauma.
What I can share about this experiences:

About the facts:
The main difficulty is that the parents were not protective enough or she was
herself in fault. And the anger against them or herself is, of course, directed
to the raptor...
Most of this cases are related to sexual abuse or other abuses. This make it
difficult too because the young/little girl can had love or sexual emotions to
her raptor.
She can have lost a part of herself during the facts (innocence, trust in
herself, a part of her soul...) and it is now necessary to retrieve her
integrity.

About your fears regarding the future: it seems, indeed, that women who has
been sexualy abused are anxious to be non-protective enough for their own
children. They become superprotective, and it is feeled by the children as an
abuse too.
But you can see to end with a perspective to her children: how to be when they
will grow...

About your fear to make a new trauma.
Look at her interrest first.
If you are not trusting yourself enough, send her to a colleague or to your
teacher.
Perhaps you can enjoy a supervision before to see her on this case: perhaps you
have to learn something about yourself and this kind of experiences.
After that, or without that, if you feel that you can trust the representants,
go ahead with care... and trust the group and the helps coming from the group
and from the representants.

About the cares and the protection frame.
1. With one level of protection (in this case I should set up more protections
-see hereunder).
You can give her, sitting near her (someone like a nurse), during the
constellation. Someone who is responsible to protect her (like a good mother,
protecting her child).
This person has the responsability and the power to stop the constellation each
time it would be necessary, or definitively.
2. Sometimes this kind of trauma needs to organize a serie of protection lines:
It takes a lot of time to install, but it is really helpfull to her to feel the
protection and the power of the persons empowered to stop the rapt or the
events.
In this case, you install one person helping her like a good mother, near her
(see above)
+ 1 one representing her on a chair (like normaly), but just before her,
sitting in the group (first level fo protection)
+ one level representing the representant of her...
so that she participates in a third or 4th level.
If necessary, only the protections are placed at the first time... and no
constellation.
And later, a constellation (with 1 or more protections again)
Each person representing her or helping her has the right to stop the
constellation or to intervene.
Only the representants know what is her feeling and if it is secure enough,
because she DON'T KNOW anything about security. And probably her system also
not.

Hoping it will help you to help her on one way or another !
Kind regards,
Marilyn

Marilyn Droog
Brussels

________________________________

From:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto: ;<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
] On Behalf Of Patrick McNally
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:40 PM
To:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape

Gary and All,

Reading Gary's beautiful explication of forgiveness below is
timely because I have a young woman (early 20's)
who has asked for my help regarding rape while she was in college.
I've not dealt with rape before, and while thinking how we might
proceed in an upcoming workshop, I feel she very much "blames"
the rapist for the devastating effects the experience has had on her
life. She's in a relationship, plans to marry and have children, and
I can only surmise that if left unresolved the rape will have bad
consequences for her children.

Is my feeling right that the rapist has become a member of her
system, or am I taking that too far? It's not murder,
but the degree of violation seems in her case to result in closeness
between her and the rapist, rejected by her, that must come to
light.

I have a bit of fear to proceed, not wanting to cause any
harm, and also recognize that confronting my fear could
open us up to a deep experience in this field, if that's
appropriate to her.

Wanting very much to help her, and appreciating any
comments from the group.

Patrick McNally

________________________________
From: " <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> " <
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To: "ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.%20com%20%3cmailto:ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.%20com%3e%20>
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Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Transcending Forgiveness through Acceptance by
Gary Stuart

Transcending Forgiveness Through Acceptance

Today, many healers, seekers and therapists have jumped on a
dysfunctional bandwagon without realizing the systemic consequences at
hand. Bert Hellinger, renowned philosopher and developer of
Constellation work and Spirit-Mind movements, has reported for many,
many years that there is a hidden symmetry and order to love.

As a facilitator of this modality, I must concur that I find these
bold statements to be very true and will gladly help anyone explore and
understand the philosophy and reasoning behind them. As always, let your
heart decide what is right for you and your well-being.

Practicing the "Art of Forgiveness" can be very damaging to the
so-called "forgiver" on many levels. This act of superiority may not
serve their best interests no matter how well-intentioned. This superior
attitude that seeks to be bigger than a perpetrator or any painful
situation actually diminishes the effectiveness of release that only
acceptance can consciously bring about. The "forgiver' actually
perpetuates the pain of victimization in an unhealthful way -- upon
themselves and, unconsciously, upon others as well.

If the desired goal is to release oneself from pain and suffering in
order to heal a deep wound and move beyond an endured atrocity, the very
idea of "forgiveness" becomes detrimental to both the Forgiver and the
Forgiven. Systemically speaking, we would call this being "too big,"
arrogant or presumptuous, as it robs the perpetrator of responsibility,
whether it was our parents or any other person who has done us perceived
"harm." It also disrespects the bigger fate and destiny of our whole
ancestral line. In doing so, the "forgiver" attempts to elevate him or
herself to the "top" of the whole hierarchical system, as if he or she
was the creator of life itself -- showing pity on these poor little
subjects under his or her command. In reality, the most recent addition
to any larger family system has no right to judge those who came before,
as they are the newer members in the larger hierarchical framework known
as a family. Sure we all have our opinions and feelings, and these are
in no way meant to be negated, but if anyone truly wants to break the
cycle of Perpetrator/Victim, "forgiveness" is NOT the way to do it. It
is then the Victim who carries both energies, thereby hurting themselves
with a heavier load of toxic baggage that enslaves them to the past.

ReSOULution

There is a way out, however, that is more simple, profound and
completely healing, leading to a restoration of love, order and harmony
for all concerned. This liberating state of "non-forgiveness" is simply
called "ACCEPTANCE." Can we be small enough and humble enough to
acknowledge our place in the larger context of a multidimensional
generation of forebears from whence we inherited our DNA? We received
the Gift of Life through them despite their suffering and turmoil. This
dualistic condition in which we are living provides wonder and horror
equally. The key is to honor and accept life itself AS IT IS. This
action of accepting imperfection (even the living dynamics of
catastrophic change) will lead us back to our inner and outer harmony,
providing us with dignity and strength. These qualities will only help
us accept the gifts and challenges equally that life continually seems
to toss in our path. It is the ACCEPTANCE of everything "as it is," from
our families to our human history, that releases us all from the chains
of the past and points us toward a better tomorrow.

Just as the arrogance of "forgiveness" weakens us, the humility of
"acceptance" empowers us. It is ours to decide which feels best and does
the most good. Always remember, we did not create the cycle of life. We
are merely participants, and our day in the Sun lasts for a very short
time.

This is our chance to enjoy, transform and better ourselves and our
children, just as those who came before did for us, whether we know it
or not. Taking our rightful place as the smallest member of the family
system allows us to evolve into something great. Honor and gratitude,
along with ACCEPTANCE, breaks the cycle of slavery to which Forgiveness
binds us. Our ACCEPTANCE of life AS IT IS, along with accepting our
parents AS THEY ARE and our larger family system AS IT WAS, relieves us
of our self-appointed role as judge and jury. To remain neutral without
judgments also leads us to accept the good things we inherited more
deeply. By letting those who wronged or hurt us own their own
Perpetrator/Victim energy, we release ourselves from the entanglement
and let the fate and responsibility rest where it belongs -- with them.

This isn't about blame or shaming others for the choices they made.
It is about honoring our own part in it and the acknowledgement that
with acceptance comes release. Life seems to be inherently good, as
everyone who shares life has always tried to follow his or her good
conscience to the best of their ability. Often such incidents occurred
in a place and time pre-dating your own creation and admission into the
family system -- and which, on the deepest of levels, was probably
agreed to all along. Accepting these simple truths will free you and
strengthen your resolve without any need to "FORGIVE." Bow Down in
thankfulness & gratitude as you ACCEPT your life as a Gift that was
Given.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--

Marilyn Droog
Administrateur-Déléguée

Abunde s.c.r.l.

Expertise en systèmes complexes
Formations ciselées à la commande
Formations à la méthode CSE&O pour HRManagers, coachs, médiateurs, formateurs

www.abunde.com < <http://www.abunde.com/> http://www.abunde.com/>
rue de la Fauvette, 15 - 1180 Bruxelles
Tél : + 32 (0)2 375 89 31
Gsm : 0495 53 55 63
Entreprise : BE 0444921182

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: Rape

Posted by: "Leslie Nipps"  <mailto:lnipps@xxxxxxxxx?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Rape>
lnipps@xxxxxxxxx

Tue Feb 7, 2012 5:15 pm (PST)

“We all cause harm in attempts to help. We all fail at times. There is no
avoiding that. Keep an open heart, a clear mind, a good intention. Be
fearless when courage is demanded and fearful when you wake in the night and
smell smoke. Good feedback from clients is an valid indicator of your
ability. Trust the field to support and guide you.”

Thank you so much for this, Dan. Lovely, true, and genuinely helpful.

The Rev. Leslie Nipps, Master NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner

"Trust as a Way of Life..."

<mailto: ;<mailto:lnipps%40gmail.com> lnipps@xxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:lnipps%40gmail.com> lnipps@xxxxxxxxx

< <http://www.leslienipps.com> http://www.leslienipps.com> www.leslienipps.com

_____

From:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto: ;<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 4:58 PM
To:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape

Hi Patrick –

I read the many responses to your original post with fascination. In
responding, I inadvertently sowed confusion suggesting that women who had
many children were all coerced. Chris Walsh and Hania Moser gently pointed
out the folly of this assertion. It was actually the opposite of my intended
point, which is that a woman who is sexually assaulted today stands at the
front of a line of countless mothers and daughters who have suffered traumas
at the hands of men. Suggesting that rape means this or that or is the
result of this or that is simplistic. What helps in my experience is to
avoid commentary and analysis in favor of establishing good contact with the
love and support of these ancestors.

Your story of Bert Hellinger’s Louisville training stirs me. I attended his
Washington DC workshop for cancer patients and the couples weekend the
following year. After one, there was a special training day for facilitators
which was legend. In retrospect, what I most strongly recall from those
events were the outrageous statements and actions. I suspect other CT
readers who were there share those memories.

If it were not for Hellinger, his brilliance and generosity, I would not be
a Family Constellations facilitator. It is my calling and passion. I am
deeply indebted to him for teaching me and offering me incredible gifts.
Many clients I sit with report their Constellation is a turning point in
their lives. I thank him with deep gratitude.

And, I have seen him do and say things that accumulated into such great
distaste that I could no longer tolerate to attend his events. This was all
before his divorce and re-marriage. I know quite a number people who fell
into a state of despair after their experiences with him. One, who he called
a murderer in front of a large audience, cried daily for years afterwards.

We all cause harm in attempts to help. We all fail at times. There is no
avoiding that. Keep an open heart, a clear mind, a good intention. Be
fearless when courage is demanded and fearful when you wake in the night and
smell smoke. Good feedback from clients is an valid indicator of your
ability. Trust the field to support and guide you.

Dan

From:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto: ;<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patrick McNally
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 6:54 PM
To:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape

Daniela and All,

Having begun this thread and read with interest and gratitude each response,
I'd like to share my impressions so far:

I'm pleased to have opened the conversation to be able to see clearly my own
immaturity as a facilitator, humbled by the deep insights, intelligence and
skill reflected in the responses. Having only facilitated a few workshops
and private sessions in the past three years, I am clearly not ready to take
on trauma of this nature and might do more harm that good.

It also seems clear that in this case a woman would best handle the issue,
not a man (at lease not me). Therefore, I intend to refer this young woman
to a local facilitator (a woman) who has much more experience and can likely
promote positive movement, maybe over several sessions as some have
suggested.

Although I often trust my intuitive nature, and have received very good
"feedback" from those attending my few workshops, there are severe limits. I
recall in Louisville when Bert Hellinger split us into groups to practice
facilitating, and the issue brought before me was a life threatening cancer.
It confused me terribly, and the constellation was in all respects a
failure. I felt awful about it. Then someone who was in that group asked
Hellinger if we could do harm, reflecting to me, and he said "yes." I fell
into a state of despair, but then went myself to Hellinger (all of this
before the larger group) and asked something to the effect "If we don't try
how are we to learn?" He was very kind, realizing my state of mind, and
offered up something contradictory to the idea that we must not go in a
direction of harm, but rather try. Of course we know that Bert responds to
the moment, not in generalizations, and that answer was specific to
me. Later he took on that same woman with cancer and her issue would not
move by the "Spirit-Mind" work he was teaching us, and he reverted to the
"Classic Constellation" approach which did have a good effect. For some
reason, that woman's issue was, in fact, confusing when taken on in the ways
of Hellinger's newer insights, at least then in 2007.

As for my fear, I'm open to ideas suggested that might help us as
facilitators deal with the various levels of fear that may arise. I'm still
ruminating why the fear came up for me in this case, and will continue to
look. For now I can let it go and refer appropriately.

My deepest thanks to all for your responses and time.

Patrick

________________________________
From: " <mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu>
<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> " <
<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu>
<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> >
To:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:35 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape

Hello Patrick,
I was participant and one time representant in the case of 2 or 3
constellations about rapts. And I made myself one constellation about this
kind of trauma.
What I can share about this experiences:

About the facts:
The main difficulty is that the parents were not protective enough or she
was herself in fault. And the anger against them or herself is, of course,
directed to the raptor...
Most of this cases are related to sexual abuse or other abuses. This make it
difficult too because the young/little girl can had love or sexual emotions
to her raptor.
She can have lost a part of herself during the facts (innocence, trust in
herself, a part of her soul...) and it is now necessary to retrieve her
integrity.

About your fears regarding the future: it seems, indeed, that women who has
been sexualy abused are anxious to be non-protective enough for their own
children. They become superprotective, and it is feeled by the children as
an abuse too.
But you can see to end with a perspective to her children: how to be when
they will grow...

About your fear to make a new trauma.
Look at her interrest first.
If you are not trusting yourself enough, send her to a colleague or to your
teacher.
Perhaps you can enjoy a supervision before to see her on this case: perhaps
you have to learn something about yourself and this kind of experiences.
After that, or without that, if you feel that you can trust the
representants, go ahead with care... and trust the group and the helps
coming from the group and from the representants.

About the cares and the protection frame.
1. With one level of protection (in this case I should set up more
protections -see hereunder).
You can give her, sitting near her (someone like a nurse), during the
constellation. Someone who is responsible to protect her (like a good
mother, protecting her child).
This person has the responsability and the power to stop the constellation
each time it would be necessary, or definitively.
2. Sometimes this kind of trauma needs to organize a serie of protection
lines:
It takes a lot of time to install, but it is really helpfull to her to feel
the protection and the power of the persons empowered to stop the rapt or
the events.
In this case, you install one person helping her like a good mother, near
her (see above)
+ 1 one representing her on a chair (like normaly), but just before her,
sitting in the group (first level fo protection)
+ one level representing the representant of her...
so that she participates in a third or 4th level.
If necessary, only the protections are placed at the first time... and no
constellation.
And later, a constellation (with 1 or more protections again)
Each person representing her or helping her has the right to stop the
constellation or to intervene.
Only the representants know what is her feeling and if it is secure enough,
because she DON'T KNOW anything about security. And probably her system also
not.

Hoping it will help you to help her on one way or another !
Kind regards,
Marilyn

Marilyn Droog
Brussels

________________________________

From:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto: ;<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patrick McNally
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:40 PM
To:  <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape

Gary and All,

Reading Gary's beautiful explication of forgiveness below is
timely because I have a young woman (early 20's)
who has asked for my help regarding rape while she was in college.
I've not dealt with rape before, and while thinking how we might
proceed in an upcoming workshop, I feel she very much "blames"
the rapist for the devastating effects the experience has had on her
life. She's in a relationship, plans to marry and have children, and
I can only surmise that if left unresolved the rape will have bad
consequences for her children.

Is my feeling right that the rapist has become a member of her
system, or am I taking that too far? It's not murder,
but the degree of violation seems in her case to result in closeness
between her and the rapist, rejected by her, that must come to
light.

I have a bit of fear to proceed, not wanting to cause any
harm, and also recognize that confronting my fear could
open us up to a deep experience in this field, if that's
appropriate to her.

Wanting very much to help her, and appreciating any
comments from the group.

Patrick McNally

________________________________
From: " <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com>
<mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> "
< <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com>
<mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> >
To: "ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.%20com%0b%3cmailto:ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.%20com%3e%20>

<mailto:ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.%20com> "
< <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Transcending Forgiveness through Acceptance by
Gary Stuart

Transcending Forgiveness Through Acceptance

Today, many healers, seekers and therapists have jumped on a
dysfunctional bandwagon without realizing the systemic consequences at
hand. Bert Hellinger, renowned philosopher and developer of
Constellation work and Spirit-Mind movements, has reported for many,
many years that there is a hidden symmetry and order to love.

As a facilitator of this modality, I must concur that I find these
bold statements to be very true and will gladly help anyone explore and
understand the philosophy and reasoning behind them. As always, let your
heart decide what is right for you and your well-being.

Practicing the "Art of Forgiveness" can be very damaging to the
so-called "forgiver" on many levels. This act of superiority may not
serve their best interests no matter how well-intentioned. This superior
attitude that seeks to be bigger than a perpetrator or any painful
situation actually diminishes the effectiveness of release that only
acceptance can consciously bring about. The "forgiver' actually
perpetuates the pain of victimization in an unhealthful way -- upon
themselves and, unconsciously, upon others as well.

If the desired goal is to release oneself from pain and suffering in
order to heal a deep wound and move beyond an endured atrocity, the very
idea of "forgiveness" becomes detrimental to both the Forgiver and the
Forgiven. Systemically speaking, we would call this being "too big,"
arrogant or presumptuous, as it robs the perpetrator of responsibility,
whether it was our parents or any other person who has done us perceived
"harm." It also disrespects the bigger fate and destiny of our whole
ancestral line. In doing so, the "forgiver" attempts to elevate him or
herself to the "top" of the whole hierarchical system, as if he or she
was the creator of life itself -- showing pity on these poor little
subjects under his or her command. In reality, the most recent addition
to any larger family system has no right to judge those who came before,
as they are the newer members in the larger hierarchical framework known
as a family. Sure we all have our opinions and feelings, and these are
in no way meant to be negated, but if anyone truly wants to break the
cycle of Perpetrator/Victim, "forgiveness" is NOT the way to do it. It
is then the Victim who carries both energies, thereby hurting themselves
with a heavier load of toxic baggage that enslaves them to the past.

ReSOULution

There is a way out, however, that is more simple, profound and
completely healing, leading to a restoration of love, order and harmony
for all concerned. This liberating state of "non-forgiveness" is simply
called "ACCEPTANCE." Can we be small enough and humble enough to
acknowledge our place in the larger context of a multidimensional
generation of forebears from whence we inherited our DNA? We received
the Gift of Life through them despite their suffering and turmoil. This
dualistic condition in which we are living provides wonder and horror
equally. The key is to honor and accept life itself AS IT IS. This
action of accepting imperfection (even the living dynamics of
catastrophic change) will lead us back to our inner and outer harmony,
providing us with dignity and strength. These qualities will only help
us accept the gifts and challenges equally that life continually seems
to toss in our path. It is the ACCEPTANCE of everything "as it is," from
our families to our human history, that releases us all from the chains
of the past and points us toward a better tomorrow.

Just as the arrogance of "forgiveness" weakens us, the humility of
"acceptance" empowers us. It is ours to decide which feels best and does
the most good. Always remember, we did not create the cycle of life. We
are merely participants, and our day in the Sun lasts for a very short
time.

This is our chance to enjoy, transform and better ourselves and our
children, just as those who came before did for us, whether we know it
or not. Taking our rightful place as the smallest member of the family
system allows us to evolve into something great. Honor and gratitude,
along with ACCEPTANCE, breaks the cycle of slavery to which Forgiveness
binds us. Our ACCEPTANCE of life AS IT IS, along with accepting our
parents AS THEY ARE and our larger family system AS IT WAS, relieves us
of our self-appointed role as judge and jury. To remain neutral without
judgments also leads us to accept the good things we inherited more
deeply. By letting those who wronged or hurt us own their own
Perpetrator/Victim energy, we release ourselves from the entanglement
and let the fate and responsibility rest where it belongs -- with them.

This isn't about blame or shaming others for the choices they made.
It is about honoring our own part in it and the acknowledgement that
with acceptance comes release. Life seems to be inherently good, as
everyone who shares life has always tried to follow his or her good
conscience to the best of their ability. Often such incidents occurred
in a place and time pre-dating your own creation and admission into the
family system -- and which, on the deepest of levels, was probably
agreed to all along. Accepting these simple truths will free you and
strengthen your resolve without any need to "FORGIVE." Bow Down in
thankfulness & gratitude as you ACCEPT your life as a Gift that was
Given.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--

Marilyn Droog
Administrateur-Déléguée

Abunde s.c.r.l.

Expertise en systèmes complexes
Formations ciselées à la commande
Formations à la méthode CSE&O pour HRManagers, coachs, médiateurs,

RE: FORGIVENESS [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 1963

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