Re: IVF

From: "Gail" <gail_m_allen@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 02:04:31 -0000

Hi Barbara, Julie, Chris and others,

Am really interested to hear your post Barabara. After my post the
other day I have been wondering more around this. Particularly around
the bonding and the balance of give and take. We see that the best
order is when parents give and children take. Children balance this
by in turn giving to their own children. The return gift in this for
their parents is around the joy for the parents when they see the
life that flowed through them continuing down the generations. If we
do not have children of our own then there is a need to balance what
our parents gave to us in some other way.

When there is an adoptive father, the gift that he is in a position
give to the adopted child in terms of physical and hopefully
emotional care feels very large and hard to accept, very humbling to
accept. And perhaps very hard for the adopting father to give without
expecting something in return. Sometimes this is where sexual and
other appropriate boundaries become confused and the child is drawn
into that space of meeting the parent's need. Of course this dynamic
is not specific or limited to adopting parents, but you can see how
because the need to balance giving, and the desperation around having
a child that this is a challenging relationship.

I was wondering about the bond for the mother and child when an egg
is donated. During the pregnancy the child is in a symbiotic
relationship with the mother - their blood is shared, cells pass
between them. On this list before there has been discussion around
that after the birth, the child's blood cells can still be found in
the mother, and the mother's in the child. It would be interesting
to see the birth mother's place in the sort of constellation that you
describe Barbara.

When a couple resorts to IVF there are usually huge emotional issues,
it is a very challenging path. For each of them could be feelings of
inadequacy and of not being good enough for the other. For this
father that Julie describes his feelings of virility may be
challenged. There are so many paths to explore - did he want to be a
father? Did he want to be a father using IVF? Was he accommodating
his wife's need to have a child or the other way round? In taking the
path of IVF were there issues that the couple avoided? What is
challenged in the parent's relationship if they don't have children?
What is challenged when they do have children? Is there respect
between the parents, and if not when did it go?

So many possible paths of inquiry and speculation....

Gail.

-- In ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, beggenberger@... wrote:

Hello Everyone,

I am Barbara from Sacramento. Have not written in a while but

wanted to respond to this subject of donor parents.  I saw a
constellation in one of Gabrielle Borkan's workshops with a woman who
had done three egg donations.  She set up herself and the three
donations.  I should mention the constellation was a blind one and no
one in it knew what they were or what the subject matter was.  The
egg babies actaully acted out their birth order and what would have
been their ages.  The donations had been a year apart and the last
one would still have been a fetus.  The oldest was very interested in
the "mother" and full of questions.  The second was pulled between
following the first and concern for the youngest.  The youngest was
in a fetal position and very angry at the "mother" and clearly in
pain.  The middle one tried to soothe the youngest and the oldest
kept asking questions of the mother to try and understand who she
was.

The mother was oblivious and uninterested in the "egg babies." She

was busy walking around reading things and then started lighting
matches.  She was vaguely curious why the youngest was mad at her and
said at one point, "I think I burned her."  At this admission, a
serious communication took place and the mother eventually apologized
for causing harm and then told the youngest that she needed to stop
whining and get up and join the rest of them.  At the end all the egg
babies were following the mother and dancing around in a circle
singing.  It was very sweet and odd at the same time.

It came out later that this woman who had donated her eggs had not

asked for this constellation but had been persuaded to do it by
Gabrielle who was concerned that this process of donating eggs was
harmful to the family soul.  Gabrielle was surprised at the ending
and seemed to think it had something to do with the youth of the
mother.  I suspect it had to do with giving the babies a place in her
heart that made the difference.   I also wonder what this would have
been like if it had not been a blind constellation.  The mother has
not done any more egg donations.

Gabrielle seemed certain that the donations were a mistake but I

wonder if it is less about what we do and more about how we do it.
If we do it with consciousness and connection and responsibility for
the reality of the family soul....what then might we need to do to
take care that all connections between new families and DNA families
stay clear and strong.

Thank you for all this amazing discourse,
Barbara Eggenberger

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Chris Walsh" <chrisjwalsh@...>
I think this constellation of Gail's illustrates clearly the

importance of

giving everyone a place in this case the biological mother and

father as

well as the "adoptive father" When Gail says that as representative

for the

child artificially conceived with donor sperm that she felt "a

sense of

guilt that the mother's husband had given so much materially for my

support

even though he wasn't my father. I felt I owed him somthing, I had

been put

into debt without
my consent." It shows how excluding the biological father results

in a

secondary exclusion of the adoptive father. It would be interesting

to know

if the sense of sterility Gail felt as a representative disappeared

otherwise changed once the biological father and adoptive father

were both

given respectful places including acknowledging each other and

appropriate

acknowledgement by the mother.

Just for the sake of clarity it is useful in this discussion to

note that

IVF does not usually involve donor sperm or donor eggs for that

matter. It

usually uses sperm and eggs from the man and woman concerned. This

is the

case in Julie's initial enquiry. I agree with Gail that the medical

staff

involved are not important in terms of the dynamics of the bonding.

hasta la vista

Chris Walsh

Melbourne, Australia
webpage: www.cwalsh.com.au

From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gail
Sent: Wednesday, 30 May 2007 1:17 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: IVF

Hi Julie,

I'm sure others have more experience and knowledge around this than

do but I am happy to share the experience of representing a person
whose conception was the result of donor sperm. The mother was
married to a man who was sterile. She desperately wanted a child,

they took the path of artificial insemination. By the time the
constellation was facilitated the mother and her husband had

divorced.

When I was placed as the representative I became aware of the
whiteness in the room and the feeling that things were very

clinical.

I was really bothered by how 'sterile' everything seemed. Part of

the

resolutions were around that as a child I felt I existed only to
serve the mother's needs. There was a struggle around breaking free
to live my own life and a sense of guilt that the mother's husband
had given so much materially for my support even though he wasn't

father. I felt I owed him somthing, I had been put into debt

without

my consent.
There was no sense of a family bond towards the mother's husband,

but

it was really important for me to see a picture of 'where I came
from'. This picture was of the mother and her husband standing,

with

the mother on the left hand side, and behind them, connecting them
somehow, the sperm donor, my biological father. There was a sense

needing to accept that this was my beginning, a space where there

was

no passion, just clinical starkness, and looking at the mother's
sterile husband I understood why sterility bothered me, he appeared
to block my access to my father and interrupted the free flow of

life

through my father to me.

In this constellation there was no energetic need for the medical
staff. They were not part of the system. I don't think it is the

act

of intercourse that creates the bond. As you can see from this
example, the life flows through the cellular DNA and this is what
creates the bond. The conceptual act, whether it involves love,
passion, rape, incidental acts of lust, drugs or alcohol numbing

and

blurring, IVF, artificial insemination, etc., seem to give a sort

framework or flavour to the person's life, a part of fate over

which

we have no control, but often need to say 'yes' to in order to
accept our own life fully.

I'm guessing that if you were to set a constellation for this

client

the bond of fatherhood would be found there no matter what the

father

is aware of feeling.

Regards, Gail.

--- In ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> , "Julie Toms-Arbel"
<j.toms2@> wrote:

Hello,
I would be most grateful if there is anyone who could comment

from

a systemic perspective about a client that I am working with. She
conceived twin girls 5 years ago after IVF treatment. It is

important

to note that there were no donors involved. Her husband never felt
that the girls were his own as it seems that the necessary bond
through intercourse did not occur at their conception. After a

couple

of years of him drinking the couple divorced and the little girls
stayed with their Father at weekends. To the mother's horror it was
revealed that the Father had been sexually abusing his daughters

when

they visited him. Social services have been involved and the Father
has turned away and is no longer seeing his children, One of the
girls is desperate to see her daddy.

What I know very little about, is the complex issues that

surround

IVF. For instance, A doctor is involved, would they become apart of
the system in a constellation?

Where donors are involved I would imagine they would be an

intrinsic part the of the system. When only one donor is involved
then does a bond occur between the donor and the parent?

I would really liked to open up a discussion around this subject

we live in times where creating a family can involve more than two
people.

Thank you and best wishes from England
Julie

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References:
- RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: IVF
  - From: beggenberger

Re: IVF

Other related posts: