Re: the Dignity of Gender [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 2318

From: "David Mathes" <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 00:48:35 +0000

Hello,

Seems the world does get more complex. Things used to be more straight forward.
Maybe Vanilla or Strawberry ice cream in the shop, or a phone that just made
phone calls.

Recently I was a little involved into some research into prostate cancer.
Cancer can be caused by the most complex forms of consciousness, the most
intense radiation. I was amazed that the research showed that for some men,
like those men who seem to dress not so masculine, but who feel not homosexual,
the metrosexuals maybe, the consciousness is getting more complex, so now they
have more feminine energy, and this leads to more complexity and radiation, and
in some, to prostate cancer.

The lines are becoming more blurred for some.

All the best, david

www.amita-institute.com
David Mathes

-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 19 Jul 2013 12:52:18
To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "No Reply"<notify-dg-ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 2318

Constellation Talk



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4 New Messages

Digest #2318



1a

           Re: The dignity of gender- every which way
        by "Barbara Morgan"

2a

           Re: honor cultures
        by "Deborah Gavrin Frangquist" deborah_g_frangquist

2b

           Re: honor cultures
        by "Karen Carnabucci" karencarnabucci

3a

           Re: Wedding Vows-- new insights gathered
        by "Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice"


Messages

1a



        Re: The dignity of gender- every which way

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/9819;_ylc=X3oDMTJxa2tlb3NlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzk4MTkEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTM3NDIzODMzOA-->



Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:35 pm (PDT) . Posted by:


        "Barbara Morgan"

<mailto:theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20The%20dignity%20of%20gender-%20every%20which%20way>

Thank you Steve and thank you Francesca for your thought-provoking and
enlightening writing on this all-important topic. I have very little
experience in this area but do recall one constellation I did with a guy
whose father had decided to transition the day of the workshop. In his
constellation, the focus was completely on his mother's side of the family.
He felt frustrated but that was where the energy went. When he got home
that night, his father had changed his mind. Interesting.
Best wishes
Barbara

On 9 July 2013 23:15, Steve Vinay Gunther <spirited@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:spirited%40depth.net.au> > wrote:

**

Francesca

Thanks for this lengthy and thoughtful response to the topic. Its such a
relief to hear a non-western perspective. Our world is dominated by a
western-centric view of life, so hearing of a different cultural take (and
healthier in many ways) is refreshing and provoking of reflection.

You bring up traditional stories with their apocryphal qualities. Its
interesting to see the stories that have emerged around transsexuality in
the west - people who have written books, and/or have some measure of fame
before or after - the tennis star (Renee Richards), or in contemporary
times Korean model Cho Han Bit. Or else they feature as colour queer
characters in films - Priscilla of the desert. These don't really help
normalise transsexuality in the sense of teaching people how to deal with
it in everyday life.

I think your point on exclusion is certain relevant; of course its our
central interest as constellation practitioners, and its true its a very
important question. My father was an avid charismatic Christian at the time
of his transition, with a lot of involvement in that community. When he
chose to transition, not one person from that community stood by him. That
was of course extremely painful for him.

But inclusion and exclusion are very complex. The law requires people to
not exclude transsexuals. So someone transiting at a workplace expects and
often gets instant organisational acceptance. From one day to the next, the
title on their office door is changed, and colleagues call them by their
new name.

This is all very well, but such official acceptance is not the same thing
as real inclusion. The feelings of the co-workers are never dealt with. Its
great the ts is not excluded, but without space for reaction, doubt and
discomfort on the part of the co-workers, it tends then to be very
superficial.

The same is true in families. The ts wants instant acceptance, of course.
But its not that easy. The transition for them is positive and heroic. The
experience for family members is primarily of loss. So there needs to be a
lot of support in the system for the honouring of that sense of loss. But
the ts usually experiences that as just more rejection, and so difficult
and destructive dynamics tend to ensue. Indeed, I think the only viable
solutions are systemic, but they are almost never sought unfortunately.

Ts themselves are often very rejecting of their family. Perhaps this is a
defensive reaction. Perhaps this helps them separate from their former
identity. But many children of ts feel quite abandoned. Thats certainly my
experience. My father has only a very limited interest in my life, and
virtually no interest in my children or grandchildren. So the exclusion is
strangely embedded in the system.

My own experience is also complex. When I first got the news, I accepted
it immediately - after all, I am a therapist, I am open minded, I am
adventurous, I respect peoples choices, I am interested in alternative ways
of looking at the world, I am a feminist.

However, over time I found it wasn't that easy emotionally. Seeing my
father in a dress for the first time was not actually a very pleasant
experience. She wanted me to like it. I just didn't. She felt rejected. I
didn't experience any space for an authentic reaction. You can see how
these dynamics can go downhill.

Another example. One of my students went through a transition during the
time they were training with me. There was an atmosphere that supported
open discussion and authenticity. This was a ftm (female to male) case. As
she started identifying as a man, and wanted to be called 'he', she/he
expected instance acceptance. I said, honestly, I accept this is your
choice and accept this is your transition. But you haven't had 30 years
experience as a man, so its I don't think joining the club of being a man
is something so simple and instantaneous. I am happy to treat you as a
newcomer, but not someone who just instantly fits into the knowing world of
men. She felt excluded and rejected by that, but I wasn't going to pretend.
These are the difficult dynamics around inclusion and exclusion.

Vinay

--

Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner
Editor of
The Knowing Field
International Constellations Journal
www.cominghome.org.uk
www.theknowingfield.com

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2a



        Re: honor cultures

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/9820;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMnAzYTFqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzk4MjAEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTM3NDIzODMzOA-->



Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:01 pm (PDT) . Posted by:


        "Deborah Gavrin Frangquist"         deborah_g_frangquist
         <mailto:choices@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20honor%20cultures>

Leslie, I don't have extensive experience with honor cultures in
constellations, but I have a few thoughts which may be useful:

"Honor," in its various forms, is a familial/cultural narrative much like
other narratives along the lines of "we are victims," "we are survivors," "we
must rule to survive," and the many other variations we see in and out of
constellations. It's sometimes helpful to know something of the cultural and
historical context, but still, in the phenomenological perspective, the focus
is on how the individual client is positioned/has positioned himself (or
herself) within the narrative and the family system.

Honor-based cultures have their own flavor of what we might call dysfunctions,
as, for example, "You are the elder, therefore you have to take care of me, and
I will take advantage of that while paying lip service to your seniority." To
my mind, that dynamic is simply a variant on being inappropriately "big" in the
system.

Historically, cultures which expected young men (or second sons or whatever)
to leave the group had shared expectations about where the young men would go
to "make their fortune" or make a new life. A combination of globalization,
population growth and therefore no "empty" places to go, and modernization have
disrupted those shared expectations. That creates cognitive dissonance in the
family system, with the probability of increased refusal/inability to see "what
is" in the present.

I hope that's at least a little bit helpful.

Deborah Gavrin Frangquist
Career Consultant for Life Balance, Personal Growth, Stress Management
415-346-6121; mobile 415-642-0225
www.ChosenFutures.com

--- In ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> , "Leslie Nipps" <lnipps@...>
wrote:

I am doing a constellation this Sunday for a young man of Sicilian descent,
and I would love your insights and experience with.

1) "Honor-based" cultures.

2) The situation is which the young man is ejected from the family for
being a threat to the established order (rather like young male stallions
being ejected from the herd to protect the lead stallion's harem).

Thanks in advance for any experience you've had with these and related
themes in the constellation context!

Peace, Leslie

The Rev. Leslie Nipps, NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner

"Trust as a Way of Life..."

<http://www.leslienipps.com> www.leslienipps.com

<mailto:leslie@...> leslie@...

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2b



        Re: honor cultures

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Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:32 pm (PDT) . Posted by:


        "Karen Carnabucci"         karencarnabucci
         <mailto:karenc@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20honor%20cultures>

I know a lot about being Sicilian, having both sets of grandparents come
from Sicily and having visited the island.

There is a huge amount of trauma in the culture - this tiny island has been
invaded by all kinds of tribes and countries and peoples for thousands of
years.

There's also the Mafia, which has had a high level of control, often
unspoken, in cities large and small.

The Mafia have been known to call themselves "men of honor," and there are
lots of rituals and rules about how to conduct oneself.

"Respect" is also a very important - that people of power are given respect.

People learn to be very secretive, with a sense of danger all around - "out
there."

In my mother's day, there was great emphasis on being virginal before
marriage, and if not the family's "honor" was damaged.

Curses also are not uncommon when people feel wronged.

In the early 1900s there was such a great deal of poverty that many
immigrated to the United States, Argentina, Brazil and Venezuela, among
other countries.

Sicilian Americans have often struggled with lots of stereotypes, including
the fact that everyone comes from the Mafia or that one can't be prosperous
without some convention to the Mafia.

And - it is an amazingly beautiful island.

Karen Carnabucci, MSS, LCSW, LISW-S, TEP

Lake House Health & Learning Center

932 Lake Ave.

Racine, WI 53403

Phone: (262) 633-2645

E-mail: karenc@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:karenc%40wi.rr.com>

Web: http://www.lakehousecenter.com

Blog: http://midwestpsychodrama.blogspot.com

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/lakehousecenter

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/karencarnabucci

_____

From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Leslie Nipps
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 5:00 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] honor cultures

I am doing a constellation this Sunday for a young man of Sicilian descent,
and I would love your insights and experience with.

1) "Honor-based" cultures.

2) The situation is which the young man is ejected from the family for
being a threat to the established order (rather like young male stallions
being ejected from the herd to protect the lead stallion's harem).

Thanks in advance for any experience you've had with these and related
themes in the constellation context!

Peace, Leslie

The Rev. Leslie Nipps, NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner

"Trust as a Way of Life..."

<http://www.leslienipps.com> www.leslienipps.com

<mailto:leslie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:leslie%40leslienipps.com>
<mailto:leslie%40leslienipps.com> >
leslie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:leslie%40leslienipps.com>
<mailto:leslie%40leslienipps.com>

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3a



        Re: Wedding Vows-- new insights gathered

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Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:28 pm (PDT) . Posted by:


        "Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice"

<mailto:systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20Wedding%20Vows--%20new%20insights%20gathered>

I truly enjoy and learn much from these sharings:

I remember pre-knowledge of systemic constellation work how I felt such power
and support when the priest laid his hands on my head and asked that the
foremothers Sarah, Rebecca and Rachel confer their blessings upon me--I
literally felt their presence, I could only imagine how powerful the honoring
of all these heritages must have been-- belly warming and grounding.

It made me wonder how a recommitment ceremony of adoptive parents would work
when it comes to honoring the adoptive children.

I appreciate these new possibilities...

In honor and respect,

Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice
Federally Certified Spanish Interpreter and Certified Medical Interpreter
Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:Solutions%40interpreters-Colorado.com>
3036640852
Cell 7208389509

On Jul 17, 2013, at 3:28 PM, Julie toms <j.toms2@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:j.toms2%40ntlworld.com> > wrote:

Hello Larry,

My husband and I renewed our wedding vows five years ago and we wrote
a ceremony based on family constellation principles. My husband had
the male community including his Father stand behind him and I had my
Mother and a community of women stand behind me whilst we spoke our
vows. We included missing relatives, our miscarried children and
members of our family who had died. Within our family streams we have
a rich mix of bloodlines- Turkish, Finnish, Polish, Jewish, Irish and
English, so we made a space for all of these cultures and countries
and acknowledged that a lot went into making us and that we have come
from a fertile cultural pot with its Christian, Muslim and Jewish
ingredients.

Our four children were present at the ceremony and were very much
included, each being called forward according to the position of their
birth.

We brought the element of fire into ceremony and had a fire torch
passed from one generation to the next (the ceremony took place
outside as nature is our biggest resource)

I still feel the fire burning in my belly and I feel blessed when I
remember that beautiful day

With love

Julie

On 17 Jul 2013, at 21:09, Larry Kessler wrote:

Has anyone heard of or created wedding vows based on FC principles?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: the Dignity of Gender [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 2318

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