[TN-Bird] Re: Nashville Warbler (???)
- From: michael sledjeski <mbsledjeski@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: tn-bird@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:36:22 -0400
Birders,
To me, the discussion shows the value of photos in birding, and the importance
of making as many as is feasible. Words can not convey the intricacy and
ambivalence of the identification process. To often, individuals don't match
up with the limited images in the guides. At least, with photos, everybody
can share in what was seen, and learn about what to look for.
Michael Sledjeski
Del Rio TN
On Jul 1, 2012, at 7:28 PM, Michael Todd wrote:
>
>
> All,
>
> Sorry to be coming into this conversation late, from just returning from 3
> weeks near Mexico City on a work trip (no birding at all, though Bumblebee
> Hummingbird was nice on grounds of our hotel). Very interesting discussion,
> and great example of difficulty of id from partial views of a bird in one or
> two photos. At a glance, it was quite Nashville like with the eyering and
> grayish looking head, but I also agree that there isn't enough to eliminate
> Common Yellowthroat, which would be my call on the bird from just the images.
> The flanks really aren't visible, and the shading below the breast is hard to
> see,etc. I think the bill looks better for Yellowthroat as well. This has
> been a great reminder of how different perceptions can be. Thanks for
> bringing this bird to our attention Ed!
>
> Mike
>
> From: Ed Schneider <ed.schneider@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "littlezz@xxxxxxxxx" <littlezz@xxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "csloan1973@xxxxxxxxx" <csloan1973@xxxxxxxxx>; "rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx"
> <rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; tn-bird <tn-bird@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sun, July 1, 2012 10:19:31 AM
> Subject: [TN-Bird] Re: Nashville Warbler (???)
>
> ...as a photographer, I've certainly taken these into consideration. Once
> again, I was in deep Yellowthroat territory, and a Dickcissel was my intended
> target. When this bird popped into view, the eye ring is what caught my
> attention, so I got off a few (very long distance) shots. The other four
> shots are in the same two poses, or I would have included them. A side
> profile might have been nice!
>
> I agree with the majority here: the only signs that point to Nashville are
> superficial, but they were enough to second guess myself in the field. Head
> shape, bill shape, location, and time of year are strikes against this being
> a first Summer record, but definitely make for great conversation. Thanks to
> all.
>
> Next time I'll try to get some audio evidence as well ;-)
>
>
> Ed Schneider
> Davidson Co.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 30, 2012, at 11:26 PM, Bill Pulliam <littlezz@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> ...which I think points out why it takes more than just a photo of a drab
>> little green bird to document a first summer record for a boreal nesting
>> bird. I'd like some descriptions or documentation about vocalizations and
>> behavior that also appeared to exclude yellowthroat. When you have a choice
>> between two little green birds, one of which occurs by the thousands, the
>> other of which has never been documented before, you have got to consider
>> than an odd looking or oddly-imaged individual of the former is probably
>> more likely than a real occurrence of the latter.
>>
>> Bill Pulliam
>> Hohenwald TN
>>
>> On Jun 30, 2012, at 12:31 PM, Chris Sloan wrote:
>>
>> This illustrates some of the challenges of photos for ID. We're clearly
>> interpreting what we see in the photo differently. For example, I initially
>> had the same reaction about the crown patch, but then when I zoomed in and
>> studied it more closely, it doesn't seem to be there at all. It's an
>> interesting issue. If had has any more photos of the bird, maybe he can
>> post them.
>>
>> Chris Sloan
>>> Nashville, TN
>>> http://www.chrissloanphotography.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Richard Knight <rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>> I can't believe we're discussing the same photo! To me the photos show
>>> little
>>> that even suggest Com. Yellowthroat. I have banded over 350
>>> yellowthroats, so
>>> am familiar with close-up, in-hand looks at them.
>>>
>>> The head & bill shape are fine for Nashville, actually better than for
>>> yellowthroat.
>>>
>>> The eye ring is a little weak in front, but still within range for
>>> Nashville & rather strong
>>> for yellowthroat.
>>>
>>> In both photos, the light seems fine to distinguish the shade of gray on
>>> the head.
>>>
>>> You did not address the extensive, rather bright yellow underparts. A
>>> perfect fit
>>> for Nashville & all wrong for female yellowthroat. Immature male
>>> yellowthroat is,
>>> of course, eliminated by lack of any trace of black mask.
>>>
>>> In the second photo, looking at the top of the head, we can see what
>>> appears to
>>> be traces of the crown patch of Nashville, which is often partially or
>>> mostly
>>> concealed.
>>>
>>> While the null hypothesis is a good thing & should be part of our approach
>>> to ID,
>>> it doesn't always work in nature, otherwise we would never see a rare bird.
>>>
>>> Rick Knight
>>> Johnson City, TN
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Chris Sloan
>>> To: rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Cc: tn bird
>>> Sent: 6/29/2012 6:37:18 PM
>>> Subject: [TN-Bird] Re: Nashville Warbler (???)
>>>
>>> Here's why I believe this is a Common Yellowthroat:
>>>
>>> 1. The bill and head shape are all wrong for Nashville. Nashville is one
>>> of the smallest warblers and has a very thin, sharply pointed bill with a
>>> dove-like, very rounded head. This bird shows the heavier bill and flatter
>>> head shape that is a typical of a yellowthroat.
>>>
>>> 2. The white eye-ring is nowhere near thick and prominent enough for a
>>> Nashville. Nashville shows a very thick, bright, uniform white eye ring.
>>> This bird shows a fairly weak eye ring. Admittedly it's more prominent
>>> than most yellowthroats, but it's nowhere near strong enough for a
>>> Nashville. Yellowthroats can show a pale eye ring like this at times.
>>>
>>> 3. The color or the head is misleading. Yellowthroats have a grayish
>>> brown head also, but the real test is the contrast between the head and the
>>> rest of the upperparts, which is uniform in yellowthroat and sharply
>>> contrasting in Nashville. We can't see that in these photos. I do not
>>> believe the color shown here is as gray as Rick interprets. It's hard to
>>> say for sure in that light, but to me it looks fine for a yellowthroat.
>>>
>>> Remember that the null hypothesis here has to be Common Yellowthroat at
>>> this time of year, particularly in a location that is quite literally
>>> covered up with them as breeders. In my opinion, this bird shows no
>>> characteristics that are inconsistent with a Common Yellowthroat.
>>>
>>> Chris Sloan
>>> Nashville, TN
>>> http://www.chrissloanphotography.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Chris Sloan <csloan1973@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> I will post more substantive comments when I have time after work, but I
>>> stand by my response to Ed that, in my opinion, this is quite clearly a
>>> Common Yellowthroat for a number of reasons.
>>>
>>> Chris Sloan
>>> Nashville, TN
>>> http://www.chrissloanphotography.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Richard Knight <rknight8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> A few days back Ed Schneider posted a photo of a warbler for which he was
>>> unsure of
>>> the ID. In an off-list email conversation, he said the the consensus
>>> opinion was for
>>> female Common Yellowthroat. There has been no public discussion of the ID,
>>> so I am
>>> weighing in.
>>>
>>> I believe it is a Nashville Warbler.
>>> My reasoning:
>>> 1) the head is too gray for female Com. Yellowthroat, which should be
>>> brownish-olive.
>>> 2) the eye-ring is a little too bold, but head color & eye-ring are right
>>> for Nashville.
>>> 3) the yellow underneath is too extensive & even-toned for yellowthroat,
>>> which should
>>> be shaded from fairly bright in throat to dull yellow on lower breast.
>>> 4) culmen shape appears to be straight, unlike slightly down-curved for
>>> yellowthroat.
>>> The amount of yellow underneath & bill shape are good for Nashville.
>>>
>>> While Nashville Warblers in spring migration usually occur higher up in
>>> trees than the
>>> bird in the photo, which is in blackberry brambles, I often see fall
>>> migrant Nashvilles
>>> in low shrubby stuff including goldenrod & ragweed. So habitat shouldn't
>>> be an issue.
>>>
>>> Photo IDs are sometimes harder than in-life IDs, since there is only one
>>> angle per photo,
>>> no vocalizations or behavioral clues, etc. However, you can stare at the
>>> photo for as
>>> long as you want & analyze visible details.
>>>
>>> Apparently this would be the first summer record of a Nashville Warbler in
>>> TN, as
>>> Robinson (1990) lists none & I don't recall any since then. It could be a
>>> very late
>>> spring migrant or, more likely, an early fall migrant (perhaps a failed
>>> breeder) or
>>> a wandering non-breeder. Nashvilles do nest as far south as northern West
>>> Virginia.
>>>
>>> Comments welcome.
>>>
>>> Rick Knight
>>> Johnson City, TN
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Ed Schneider
>>> To: tn bird
>>> Sent: 6/23/2012 3:39:54 PM
>>> Subject: [TN-Bird] Nashville Warbler (???)
>>>
>>> Bells Bend Park, Davidson Co.
>>> 23 June, 2012
>>>
>>> I realize there are no summer records for this bird, and I wouldn't expect
>>> there to be. I of course thought I was
>>> photographing a female Common Yellowthroat, but the eye ring seemed WAY to
>>> strong compared to the female
>>> and first year yellowthroats I've seen.
>>>
>>> That being said, the bill shape doesn't scream Oreothylpis to me at all,
>>> and the habitat is of course all wrong for
>>> Nashville even in migration.
>>>
>>> Anyone care to share some thoughts on a bird that threw me for a small loop
>>> this morning? I imagine COYE can
>>> be extremely variable, and I'm still an advanced novice at best... always
>>> nice to get a photo of a questionable bird,
>>> however.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ed Schneider
>>> Davidson Co.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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