[wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
- From: "Frank Yerrace" <Frank.Yerrace@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:11:09 -0700
The mixer API is an abstraction layer. Unless an application is
intentionally written for a specific subset of hardware, it should not
assume any particular set of controls exist.
That said, some applications are indeed written for a small set of
hardware configurations and they properly rely on those hardware
features to be accessible through this mixer API. Users and
manufacturers of these kinds of applications or associated hardware
might rightfully be frustrated by changes like this which affect them or
their business. However, we expect that an incredible majority of
Windows applications are unaffected. We rely on releases like CTPs and
Betas to prove or disprove this.
Regarding some of your other comments, please realize that in order to
make progress on some of the larger Vista initiatives, sometimes there
are compromises around compatibility. It's a delicate trade-off and
clearly it would be self-destructive for us to intentionally "quietly
delete features" in ways that knowingly would have a large adverse
impact. We make the best choices possible with good intentions given the
available data and/or experience. Early adoption and feedback from
people like those on this mailing list are an important part of getting
this right and I hope this list's membership sees that they can impact
what we do.
Frank Yerrace
Microsoft Corporation
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
-----Original Message-----
From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Pages
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:59 PM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
> Just to confirm that I understand you correctly: you feel there are
some
> applications that will work better if the Vista mixer API (in normal
> mode, not the proposed compatibility mode) included line controls of
> type MIXERCONTROL_CONTROLTYPE_PEAKMETER. Do I understand you
correctly?
Yes, that is correct.
> If anyone can provide this list of apps, then we'll have better data
> when considering such a change.
It's Easter Sunday here, and I won't be back in the office until
Tuesday,
but off the top of my head, here goes.
"Newsboss", by Desktop Technologies (www.newsboss.com), which is a
newsroom
management package widely used by radio stations, has multiple audio
inputs
and an on-screen display of input levels using the peak meter controls
in
the mixer API. I'm not sure how much its functionality is degraded if
peak
meters are not supported, but when peak meters were originally omitted
from
the WDM audio model in Windows 98 and 2000, their developers insisted
that
we provide a workaround for them to directly access the peak meter nodes
in
the topology port of our sound cards (which we did, although it was
pretty
cludgy). There were great sighs of relief when peak meters were
reinstated
in XP and ME.
"Plaything", by the Community Broadcasters Association of Australia, is
used
by practically every community radio station in Australia for the
management
of satellite feeds. It features on-screen input and output level meters
that
are driven from the peak meter mixer controls. If these controls don't
exist, the software will still function but there will be no display on
the
on-screen meters (which will be rather disconcerting for the end users).
Most broadcast software packages (such as WaveCart by BSI and Audiovault
by
Broadcast Electronics) have on-screen input and output level indicators.
I
don't know for certain if these use the peak meter controls, but would
think
that there's a good chance that they would at least take advantage of
them
if they're available.
In any case, peak meter controls are a documented feature of Windows,
and
I'd have thought that application developers would have had every right
to
expect that they could use them without having them pulled out from
under
them without notice. I mean, none of these changes have even been
publicly
documented yet - we're only discovering them when we try various things
on
the CTPs and find they don't work any more. How many other "features" of
the
audio subsystem have been quietly deleted? I'm sorry, but this really
stinks.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Yerrace" <Frank.Yerrace@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 7:03 AM
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
> Jeff,
>
> Just to confirm that I understand you correctly: you feel there are
some
> applications that will work better if the Vista mixer API (in normal
> mode, not the proposed compatibility mode) included line controls of
> type MIXERCONTROL_CONTROLTYPE_PEAKMETER. Do I understand you
correctly?
>
> You said "a couple." Is this literally about two or three apps? Also,
do
> these apps not work at all or is some minor functionality not working?
> If anyone can provide this list of apps, then we'll have better data
> when considering such a change.
>
> Frank Yerrace
> Microsoft Corporation
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff Pages
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 3:46 AM
> To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
> Thanks Frank. I'll compile a list of applications that we're aware of
> that
> might require this and forward it to Richard.
>
> There are also a couple of applications that would probably be okay
with
>
> Vista's mixer API except they expect to be able to see input and
output
> peak
> meters, which Vista currently isn't virtualising. Is this something
that
>
> could be added easily at this stage?
>
> Jeff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frank Yerrace
> To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 4:05 AM
> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
>
> There's good news and not-so-good news about the current Vista
builds.
>
> The good news is that we anticipated this problem when we initially
> designed
> the new Vista audio system, and built in a mixer compatibility mode
that
>
> will cause the mixer APIs to operate much like earlier releases of
> Windows.
> The not-so-good news is that there's no really good way for an app to
> invoke
> this mode to get the compatible behavior.
>
> Our team now has a high priority work item to add this "mixer
> compatibility mode" to the general Windows Vista legacy operating
system
>
> compatibility modes. For those of you that aren't aware of this
feature
> in
> Windows XP, users enable compatibility mode for an application by
> right-clicking on the application, clicking Properties, clicking the
> Compatibility tab. If an application does not work well with the new
> mixer
> API behavior or other Vista-specific operation, the user can specify
> that
> the application should run in one of these compatibility modes (XP,
> Win2000,
> Win95, etc). Of course, as with all plans, there is no guarantee that
> this
> change will make the final product, but we're going to do everything
in
> our
> power to ensure that it does.
>
> As our own testing continues and we receive early feedback from
> communities like this, we will identify specific applications that
> clearly
> need the mixer API to work in compatibility mode (we already have
> identified
> some). We will pre-configure Vista to automatically run the mixer API
in
>
> compatibility mode for these specific applications.
>
> If you know of a specific application that needs the mixer API to
> operate
> in compatibility mode, please send email to Richard Fricks
> (richfr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx). You can forward this message with a
description
> of
> the application and appropriate contact information. Richard will
> contact
> you to gather the necessary information allowing us to pre-configure
> Vista
> to automatically run the mixer API in compatibility mode for your
> application. Furthermore, we would like to help you make future
releases
> of
> the application more Vista-ready.
>
> We hope this addresses this issue raised by several of you here.
> Thanks
> again for providing such clear feedback to us.
>
> By the way, there is a caveat regarding the mixer API behavior here.
> When
> running in this compatibility mode, the mixer APIs will allow you to
> directly control all the hardware controls reported by the audio
driver.
>
> This is NOT exactly like the Windows XP behavior. Windows XP
> virtualized
> certain controls (like volume or mute) to make them work well with the
> kernel mode mixing architecture in that OS. On Vista, the mixer API
in
> compatibility mode will not virtualize any capabilities of the
hardware
> - it
> will report exactly what the hardware driver reports and nothing more.
>
> Frank Yerrace & Larry Osterman
>
> Microsoft Corporation
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Frank Yerrace
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:14 AM
> To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
> We very much appreciate that this community is taking a good look at
>
> Vista and giving specific feedback like this. Thank you.
>
> Please give us a couple weeks to study this issue here to see if we
> can
>
> offer some alternatives for certain classes of applications like
this.
>
> If you hear nothing more within that timeframe, please raise the
issue
>
> again.
>
>
>
> Frank Yerrace
>
> Technical Lead
>
> Microsoft Corporation
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
>
> rights.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of stephen turner
>
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:26 AM
>
> To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
> I agree with Jeff and Dan -It looks like this is going to be a huge
>
> problem for professional applications that still use the mixer API
and
>
> expect full control over the h/w. Is there a way that the audio
>
> subsystem can be put in a "legacy" mode to make it act like 2000/XP?
>
> -steve
>
> ----------------------
>
> Stephen Turner
>
> AudioScience, Inc.
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> > From: "Daniel E. Germann" <deg@xxxxxxxx>
>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 7:13 AM
>
> > To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
> >
>
> > We have customers that will have the same problem. Some are
>
> broadcast, like
>
> > Jeff's, and others use our products for test and measurement
>
> applications.
>
> > Both sets of customers have existing software that expects to
access
>
> the
>
> > hardware through the mixer APIs. In fact, access to the main audio
>
> fader is
>
> > mandatory for the test and measurement app, so they can ensure
their
>
> test
>
> > stimulus signal is not attenuated. Otherwise, it will look to
their
>
> > software like the response signal has a drop in level.
>
> >
>
> > Is there a white paper that talks about these changes that we could
>
> pass on
>
> > to our customers, so they have a "heads up"? Most of the public
> info
>
> I've
>
> > seen so far is in the HD Audio or driver realm.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > -Dan
>
> > --
>
> > Dan Germann
>
> > Digital Audio Labs
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
> > > From: "Jeff Pages" <barefeet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> > > To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 8:31 AM
>
> > > Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: Mixer API under Vista build 5308
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Thanks Frank. The controls are showing up correctly and are
>
> functional
>
> > > under Device Properties as you described.
>
> > >
>
> > > My main concern is that our products are targeted at the
>
> professional
>
> > > audio market, and many of our customers will be using our cards
> with
>
> > > broadcast automation and mixing desk software that expects to
find
>
> these
>
> > > controls through the mixer API, and the loss of this
functionality
>
> will
>
> > > seriously impact on our business.
>
> > >
>
> > > Jeff
>
> >
>
> > ******************
>
> >
>
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>
>
>
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