[bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

  • From: "Pratik patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 16:48:45 -0400

Jake,

Scott and Evan are refering to the em dash being misrepresented in braille.
The braille translator currently takes the em dash which should appear as
double dash (dots 36, 36) and only represents it as a single dash.  As the
em dash character directly joins two words in print, this gives the braille
words joined by an em dash the appearance of two hyphinated words.  This is
probably not going to be as easily resolved by engineering as page breaks
and pagination problems.  

I'll send you a private message regarding this.

Pratik



Pratik Patel
Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
The City University of New York
pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jake Brownell
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:27 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

Hi Scott,
    Pratick has in all likelihood already pointed out BookShare's position. 
Trying to preserve the original text as closely as possible is a good idea.
    Upgrading the Braille translation is always possible in the future. For 
those skeptical, I point out that BookShare invested significant time last 
year to produce better formatted Braille files.
    Also, think of it this way, if you get rid of em dashes, nothing will 
ever put them back. Some folks who use DAISY might even be confused when 
encountering double dashes, and that implies a different style of writing 
than does using the em dash. Bottom line is that yes, it's a minor change, 
but it is a change nonetheless.

What exactly is appearing in the Braille files, verses what should be? 
Bringing specifics like this to my attention will help Gerald and I when we 
attempt to punch out some lists of things that need to be addressed. Telling

a programmer, hey em dashes aren't coming out right, isn't as helpful as 
telling him/her what is coming out rather than what should be.

Jake

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?


> Currently, I'm handling m dashes as described in Evan's message. I convert

> m dashes to double dashes when working with the rtf files in MS Word. Is 
> there an official Bookshare position on this?
>
> Scott
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:35 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>
>
>>I don't know what the Braille translator does with them.  As I recall,  it

>>either doesn't display them properly, or it only puts in one dash instead 
>>of two, which is what you should have in the Braille file.  I do know that

>>in books I scan and read as rtf files, they are not properly displayed on 
>>my Pac Mate.  I generally convert them to double dashes with a quick 
>>search and replace all in Word before sending them up to Bookshare.
>>
>> I'm not changing that.  I don't see why Braille readers should have to 
>> suffer through crummy-looking text because someday some future software 
>> upgrade just might fix the problem - assuming there is one.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:31 AM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>
>>
>>> I'm curious though, which comes out better in braille: m dash, or double

>>> dash? Does it matter? I seem to specifically remember several people on 
>>> this list encouraging the conversion of m dashes to double dashes for 
>>> the benefit of braille readers.
>>>
>>> Can anybody comment?
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Pratik patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:39 AM
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Cindy,
>>>>
>>>> Please stick with the M-dash character when you enter it.  The 
>>>> automated
>>>> tools may not support the proper conversion, but, we have to make sure 
>>>> that
>>>> future versions of those tools do support such conversions.  The 
>>>> em-dash
>>>> character is a slightly shorter character than the double dash (--).  I

>>>> know
>>>> we have been working with the formatting to satisfy the stripper
>>>> requirement; but we should try to take a conservative approach when 
>>>> editting
>>>> the original text especially when it comes to formatting.  In some 
>>>> cases, we
>>>> might have to move words around or make slight font changes but we 
>>>> should
>>>> avoid making other changes.
>>>>
>>>> Pratik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pratik Patel
>>>> Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
>>>> The City University of New York
>>>> pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:55 AM
>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>
>>>> Is Lissi right in what she says about two dashes
>>>> instead of an em dash being easier to read in braile?
>>>> What about with Daisy? What should I be doing, em dash
>>>> or double dash?
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> --- Estelnalissi <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Jake,
>>>>>
>>>>> Your directions worked perfectly! I'm levitating! We
>>>>> all know I'm not the
>>>>> fastest barge on the canal when it comes to
>>>>> computers, but your instructions
>>>>> put those m dashes exactly where I needed them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The M dash will be especially easy to remember
>>>>> because it's insert 4 as you
>>>>> said for jaws, and then tapping e 4 times to reach m
>>>>> dash and enter not even
>>>>> having to go to OK!
>>>>>
>>>>> Also exciting is the fact I saw a slew of items
>>>>> listed in the insert 4
>>>>> dialogue box which may turn out to be useful!!
>>>>>
>>>>> The book I'm working on is an Irish memoir. Instead
>>>>> of using quotes or
>>>>> apostrophes, there's a dash or m dash before all
>>>>> quotes and no mark to show
>>>>> the end of the quote. It's plain in print because
>>>>> quotes are inserted
>>>>> farther than the narrative, but I think braille
>>>>> readers will quickly catch
>>>>> the pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> While blissfully making my corrections with the new
>>>>> command, I noticed that
>>>>> the scanner read these unique indications of quotes
>>>>> as dash about half of
>>>>> the time and M dash the other half with some minus
>>>>> signs thrown in for
>>>>> variety. The mixture was random so I made a command
>>>>> decision to use the
>>>>> simpler dash to indicate quotes. I'm on page 27 now
>>>>> and all quotes are
>>>>> uniformly indicated with a single dash, easier for
>>>>> me and the reader.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, when this book is approved, I'm going to
>>>>> mention that while
>>>>> anyone interested in quirky humor, Irish culture and
>>>>> recalling life from
>>>>> 1959 through 1960 something will like this book, but
>>>>> the POV, and the
>>>>> father, a kind of hero to the author will really
>>>>> appeal to the gritty guys
>>>>> among the members. I'm entranced, but regularly
>>>>> amused in spite of myself
>>>>> and grossed out, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Always with love,
>>>>>
>>>>> Lissi
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for helping me to enjoy another break
>>>>> through!
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make
>>>>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hi Lissi,
>>>>> >    There are two easy ways to insert an em-dash
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If you're using Microsoft Word, you can press
>>>>> CTRL+ALT+the minus sign on
>>>>> > the numpad.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If you're using JAWS, you can press INSERT+4 (the
>>>>> 4 on the regular
>>>>> > keyboard) and you'll get a list of symbols. Press
>>>>> the letter e a few times
>>>>> > and you'll find em dash, then press enter.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > That's all there is to it.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jake
>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> > From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:16 PM
>>>>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] M dash, how to make it?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Dear Volunteer Friends,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> There was a discussion here about making that
>>>>> long dash called m dash by
>>>>> >> Jaws using microsoft word while validating an RTF
>>>>> file. How to make it
>>>>> >> with other programs might have been mentioned,
>>>>> too.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> What I mostly remember is that it was suggested
>>>>> that just using 2 dashes
>>>>> >> comes out better for the braille reader in
>>>>> Bookshare's BRF file of a
>>>>> >> book. So, I decided that when I had a choice, I'd
>>>>> use 2 dashes.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> However, the book I'm validating is already
>>>>> packed with m dashes, so if I
>>>>> >> fix one, I thought it should match them.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> How do I make an m dash? Occasionally jaws calls
>>>>> an m dash a minus, and I
>>>>> >> want to replace the minus signs with m dashes. If
>>>>> anyone can point me to
>>>>> >> the answer or remind me how to do this, I'd
>>>>> appreciate it and save the
>>>>> >> information in my Bookshare Tips file.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> While I wait to hear about this, I'll mark the
>>>>> spot and go on. I'm only
>>>>> >> on page 12, but this book really motivates me to
>>>>> make good progress.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Hope all of your current endeavors are going
>>>>> swimmingly. - Smile
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Always with love,
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Lissi
>>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
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>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> -- 
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>>>>
>>>>
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