What is clear is that, if the issue arises in the constellation, it needs to be
addressed. If it does not arise, then it is none of our business.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 27, 2011, at 9:29 AM, angelika schenk <angelika.schenk@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I don't think it is about assigning guilt, it is rather about the empathy
with the victims, feeling the pain that was inflicted on them, and really
going through this deep grief about what one has done. This helps the victim
and promotes reconciliation from the depth. I have done constellations with
Vietnam Vets and Japanese, Germans and Russians.
It is always different in different wars and for different people, but one
thing is certain, only deep healing ensures that the pain is not carried on
into the next generations of all sides involved, in many different forms,
like illness, violence, drugs, mental illness.
Moreover, the deep regret also serves the healing of the perpetrator. On top
of it, the war situation that Bert referred to was European war between kind
of equal countries still caught in for King, or Zar or country. One cannot
say that that applies to what was done to Vietnam by an overwhelmingly more
powerful invasion force.
Bert himself has done quite number of constellations with soldiers in recent
years, and there was no word of mellowing it out to make the client better.
the next thing is also, that when the father who killed in a war does not
deal with it appropriately, the next generation will suffer, their own
children. Just look at the children of Vietnam vets in Australia. the
soldier fathers of course do need a lot of support to come through, and then
again, feeling the pain is healing for them, too, for then they can think of
what they can do as a gesture of deep regret, like going to visit and
support one of the many families who have grossly disabled children from all
the poison.
Angelika
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Robert Grant <erebees@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear Friends,
When we assign responsibility, don’t we also assign blame and guilt by
implication? That soldier client may of course need to be facilitated
to explore and deal with his real sense of responsibility and guilt,
but from the facilitator’s point of view, beyond accepting and
respecting the client’s reality, is a sense of guilt completely
appropriate?
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 9:22 PM, Thomas Bryson <tb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Frank, Lutz and others,on this.
This is a wonderfully rich thread. I am in alignment with Frank and Lutz
thread, his sense of guilt may be completely appropriate. His guilt needs
Some things being sparked in me:
1. As for the situation with the soldier in Vietnam who sparked this
context.
killing. The unconscious survival structures of the 'Orders of Love' need to
2. There isn't any new information coming to the greater system through
be seen through so that one is open to newer information.
those who are dead, 'What do they need now?'
3. The therapeutic approach that I return to over and over is to ask of
up-level the conversation and avoid responsibility for one's actions.
4. Seeing the play of killer and killed as divine play is to spiritually
of
Thomas
On Aug 27, 2011, at 12:01 PM, F Breuer wrote:
I would like to agree with Lutz, that killing during war is murder, in
terms of the inner consequences, e.g. guild and in regards to
responsibility.
The context of killing, i.e. civil life, personal interest, or war, may
frame the incident differently and may alter the felt responsibility of
one or another individual. However, at the end of the day, no one can
escape responsibilities and responsibilities for own actions cannot be
delegated to "circumstances".
We know that blaming circumstances only works in the short run.
Bert Hellinger was known for provocative statements, I love him for
those, but it does not necessarily result in me buying them.
Frank
Frank Breuer, MAPS
Clinical Psychologist
On 26/08/11 10:09 AM, Lutz Pamberger wrote:
Hi Chris and Anne
Is from your point of view killing in war murder when the soldier
decides on his free will to join the army. It is murder from my point
view.
Lutz
--
Lutz Pamberger (MAPS)
Counselling Psychologist
PO Box L28
Little Grove WA 6330
Australia
+61(0)417 952 899
www.pamberger.com.au
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