Hi Rouqqia-
Out of respect for the Hellinger focus of this yahoogroup, it would be best if we emailed each other directly. Please send me your email if you'd like to do that.
Best,
Stuart
On Jan 21, 2005, at 3:05 AM, Rouqqia Hussain wrote:
Yes, I'd like to know what else can work, please let me know
Best
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Geltner [mailto:stuart108@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 20 January 2005 21:10
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Hi Rouqqia-
Thanks for your detailed explanation. It's rich with useful and potent information.
I have recently encountered a woman who was cured of MS through a different form of work.
If you're interested I can track down the root cause of the disease according to that work.
Best wishes for your personal work.
Stuart
On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:29 AM, Rouqqia Hussain wrote:
Hi Stuart
My comment came from a couples constellation workshop that Bert Hellinger held in Poland in Nov 04. It went as follows:
A couple walks up to Bert for advice.
Even before they get up from their seats, Bert has observed the energy between them and sees who has an unresolved issue, who has the most power in the relationship, who is committed to the relationship, who is bonded to an earlier partner, etc
Then he watches how they walk together towards him , who takes the seat next to him, etc. By doing all this and more, he finds out so much that he only needs to ask the barest questions.
In this particular case, the woman, looking busy, grounded, healthy and 'sweet-faced' sat down next to Bert as if there was no question of her place centre-stage. Her husband trailed after her. He looked haggard and thin, wearing worn out clothes and a noticeably downbeat air. However all this was obvious to me only in retrospect.
The wife began by crying prettily and saying that she was suffering from MS whilst in the process of divorce after suffering directly due to her alcoholic husband during 20 years of marriage. They had 2 sons.
Bert seemed engaged till he heard her blame her alcoholic husband, then the tone changed as he said bluntly that his sympathies were very definately with the husband.
I've noticed that Bert is extremely careful with his 'soul energy' and allows nothing to contaminate it. He teaches all of us to ask ourselves in every encounter, 'Will I be stronger or weaker if I continue?' and here I could feel him antennae quivering at being next to something wrong happening. He has enormous compassion on a meta level, it's not about taking sides.
Then he set up a constellation with the wife and her father. She was told to face him, clench her fists and shout 'I WANT TO KILL YOU' She did this till she said it with satisfactory conviction and volume.
Bert explained that he had by now seen so many cases of hidden aggression and how they manifest themselves that he could make the statement that MS sufferers are defusing their urge to kill by becoming ill with diseases like MS. ( he mentions a few others but that would make this illustration even longer) He had also noticed that people who are murderers in their soul can marry someone who wants to die. Then he carried on to do a separate constellation with the husband.
Bert also explained that in his experience alcoholics come from mothers who have despised them and paternal grandmothers also. ie his father was also despised by his mother, leading to at least 2 generations of despised men, and it had been passed down to their 2 sons.
Bert carried on to say that the solution for an alcoholic man was to get respect from his wife. He gave the example of Russian men with their legendary love of vodka and alcoholism (and 'long suffering' wives). He said the wife of an alcoholic must find it in herself to treat her husband with respect and dignity. However the wife's whole dynamic is based on not respecting men, hence she chose the alcoholic in the first place. She wants to kill and he wants to die in place of his father. The husbands constellation also showed that the husband's father wanted him to die.
Bert made the statement that the husband never had a chance. It was very touching and we could all see it was true. He was one of the walking dead. Bert held him with the greatest compassion in his eyes.
There were other aspects to the constellation, finer points that I fear are taking too long to cover here.
This was my 4th workshop with Bert and in every one he has pointed out women who carry murderous rage. He said the worst is not the MS sufferer but the one who thinks she is a victim. He avoids these people and advises therapist to do the same as they are dangerous.
Until that workshop in Nov 04, I thought of myself as a victim but now I take every opportunity to catch myself out and take full responsibility for my actions. Thinking of oneself as a victim forms murderous rage. I'm not really sure what else I can do, or if this is the condition I will live in for the rest of my life. I wanted to know about myself but I never expected to discover this.
Please be aware that these are my personal observations. Others at the Poland workshops may have different interpretations of what happened or what Bert said. I'm not a therapist.
Regards
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Geltner [mailto:stuart108@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 12 January 2005 22:12
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Rouqqia-
could you please explain your comment," The alcoholic was married to a sweet faced multiple sclerosis sufferer, ie a murderer." I believe you are describing the lady with MS a murderer, but I'm not clear if that's what you are saying.
Thanks,
Stuart
On Jan 11, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Jennifer Altman wrote:
Dear Dianne,
There is a very helpful article about addictions and constellations by Colette Green in the current issue (No 5) of the Systemic Solutions Bulletin. You can order this from Barbara Morgan (barbara@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) or you could contact Colette (colettegreen@xxxxxxxxxx). She discusses the personal and systemic issues that leads to addiction and illustrates the complexity with a case study of a constellation.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this illuminating discussion!
Warmly
Jen Altman
At 16:14 11/01/2005 +0000, you wrote:
<x-tad-smaller>Dear Rouqqia,</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>I would like to complete the words of Bert about alcoholics.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>In my experience there is a layer in every woman of despise against men - out of loyalty in the long row of all the women.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>(And vice versa, the men share common feelings - I think fear it the most common and hidden.)</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>I had a constellation where the grandfather drunk himself to death but the grandmother, the third wife after the first two had died, was full of love towards him. I found it very important for the grandchild client who had difficulties with man to bring to light also the layer of anger and contempt in the grandmother. I proposed her the sentences “I love you very much. And when you home drunken at night and stink out of the mouth, deep down there are hatred and contempt.” The representative felt the sentences true.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>If a woman marries an alcoholic she must have a certain loyalty to a woman in her back. And she does not only share the attraction towards an alcoholic or drug addict but also the anger and the contempt. This makes it as difficult for a woman to respect such a man as it is difficult for a man to drop alcohol. They are in the same boat.</x-tad-smaller>
Hello All
I recently went to a Bert Hellinger workshop and he was working with an alcoholic. Bert said that alcoholics generally marry women who despise them. They desperately need those women to respect them to get better, but invariably the women won't do this because they despise men in general.
The alcoholic was married to a sweet faced multiple sclerosis sufferer, ie a murderer.
Regards
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 10 January 2005 17:59
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Diane,
I want to give just some ideas of mine. I do not work often with the subject of alcohol. But when it comes I find it useful in the constellation to give a sentence what the alcohol does good to someone.
F. e:”Drinking helps me not to feel my pain/my anger/my guilt” (and so on).
Or if somebody becomes violent with alcohol: “Drinking helps me to come out with my anger.” Or: “I drunk myself to death.” So I try to find the right context and by naming it, it becomes a little relief and more understandable.
Bertold
Thank you Sheila. I agree. What prompted the question is I had talked to someone a year ago about getting involved in a recovery program, which never happened. I saw an opportunity again this week and was wondering whether to pursue it.
I remember one constellation where generations back a boy was molested by his uncle. His father found out and killed the uncle and the boy was not allowed to talk about it. He became an alcoholic, and so did his son and grandson, who was the client's father, and the client married an alcoholic.
I guess what I meant by success was working within a program and being accepted by the counselors and directors of the program.
Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message -----
From: sheila saunders
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
I have not worked specifically with someone regarding alcoholism. However, this question "Has anyone had experience or success with..." is to my mind, 2 completely separate questions. Many facilitators have worked with alcolholic clients. Bert has worked with so many in fact, that he was able to provide the general observation that "alcoholics miss their father". I see alcoholism as just another symptom like "I can't keep a job" or "I've always felt depressed", and would work on it within the constellation of the family. As far as "success" goes, I feel my attachment to "helping" or "changing" someone when I find myself thinking in those terms. I have no idea what "success" means to anyone, and I approach a constellation only with a spirit of discovery. How the discovered information may be used in the workings of another's life, is beyond what I actively explore. Sometimes a former client lets me know, and I do invite them to do so after a time passes, and if they feel so inclined. I consider myself succcessful in this work when I remain attentive to "what is", to what is being revealed by the field. I feel successful when I have had the courage to say what I see. I feel successful when a group gathers together in which I can show the strength and integrity of this work.
I found one reference to alcoholism in Bert's book Supporting Love, :
Participant: My husband is an alcoholic. I can't stay with someone who threatens me and is dependent on alcohol.
Hellinger: Yes, I think you're right. When one partner has a problem, such as alcoholism, he or she can't demand that the partner stay. He or she has to carry the consequences. If you confront him with the problem and say, "I'm leaving the alcohol problem with you and I'm going," perhaps he can change. He will carry the responsibility alone and get strength from that. It won't help him for you to stay with him.
Just a few thoughts, Diane.
All the best in the New Year!! sheila
Sheila Saunders, RN, MFT
Systemic Family Solutions
www.systemicfamilysolutions.com
Great Smokies Medical Center of Asheville
1312 Patton Ave. Asheville, NC. 28806
828-273-5015
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