Thankyou for being so considerate Stuart.
As a matter of interest, we should all be very careful about claiming to have
cured a case of Multiple Sclerosis as the disease has a natural course of
alternating relapses and remissions.
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
An Australian Constellation Website:
www.constellationflow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Stuart Geltner
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 5:35 AM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] MS cure
Hi Rouqqia-
Out of respect for the Hellinger focus of this yahoogroup, it would be best
if we emailed each other directly. Please send me your email if you'd like to
do that.
Best,
Stuart
On Jan 21, 2005, at 3:05 AM, Rouqqia Hussain wrote:
Yes, I'd like to know what else can work, please let me know
Best
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Geltner [mailto:stuart108@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 20 January 2005 21:10
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Hi Rouqqia-
Thanks for your detailed explanation. It's rich with useful and potent
information.
I have recently encountered a woman who was cured of MS through a different
form of work.
If you're interested I can track down the root cause of the disease
according to that work.
Best wishes for your personal work.
Stuart
On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:29 AM, Rouqqia Hussain wrote:
Hi Stuart
My comment came from a couples constellation workshop that Bert Hellinger
held in Poland in Nov 04. It went as follows:
A couple walks up to Bert for advice.
Even before they get up from their seats, Bert has observed the energy
between them and sees who has an unresolved issue, who has the most power in
the relationship, who is committed to the relationship, who is bonded to an
earlier partner, etc
Then he watches how they walk together towards him , who takes the seat
next to him, etc. By doing all this and more, he finds out so much that he only
needs to ask the barest questions.
In this particular case, the woman, looking busy, grounded, healthy and
'sweet-faced' sat down next to Bert as if there was no question of her place
centre-stage. Her husband trailed after her. He looked haggard and thin,
wearing worn out clothes and a noticeably downbeat air. However all this was
obvious to me only in retrospect.
The wife began by crying prettily and saying that she was suffering from MS
whilst in the process of divorce after suffering directly due to her alcoholic
husband during 20 years of marriage. They had 2 sons.
Bert seemed engaged till he heard her blame her alcoholic husband, then the
tone changed as he said bluntly that his sympathies were very definately with
the husband.
I've noticed that Bert is extremely careful with his 'soul energy' and
allows nothing to contaminate it. He teaches all of us to ask ourselves in
every encounter, 'Will I be stronger or weaker if I continue?' and here I could
feel him antennae quivering at being next to something wrong happening. He has
enormous compassion on a meta level, it's not about taking sides.
Then he set up a constellation with the wife and her father. She was told
to face him, clench her fists and shout 'I WANT TO KILL YOU' She did this till
she said it with satisfactory conviction and volume.
Bert explained that he had by now seen so many cases of hidden aggression
and how they manifest themselves that he could make the statement that MS
sufferers are defusing their urge to kill by becoming ill with diseases like
MS. ( he mentions a few others but that would make this illustration even
longer) He had also noticed that people who are murderers in their soul can
marry someone who wants to die. Then he carried on to do a separate
constellation with the husband.
Bert also explained that in his experience alcoholics come from mothers who
have despised them and paternal grandmothers also. ie his father was also
despised by his mother, leading to at least 2 generations of despised men, and
it had been passed down to their 2 sons.
Bert carried on to say that the solution for an alcoholic man was to get
respect from his wife. He gave the example of Russian men with their legendary
love of vodka and alcoholism (and 'long suffering' wives). He said the wife of
an alcoholic must find it in herself to treat her husband with respect and
dignity. However the wife's whole dynamic is based on not respecting men, hence
she chose the alcoholic in the first place. She wants to kill and he wants to
die in place of his father. The husbands constellation also showed that the
husband's father wanted him to die.
Bert made the statement that the husband never had a chance. It was very
touching and we could all see it was true. He was one of the walking dead. Bert
held him with the greatest compassion in his eyes.
There were other aspects to the constellation, finer points that I fear are
taking too long to cover here.
This was my 4th workshop with Bert and in every one he has pointed out
women who carry murderous rage. He said the worst is not the MS sufferer but
the one who thinks she is a victim. He avoids these people and advises
therapist to do the same as they are dangerous.
Until that workshop in Nov 04, I thought of myself as a victim but now I
take every opportunity to catch myself out and take full responsibility for my
actions. Thinking of oneself as a victim forms murderous rage. I'm not really
sure what else I can do, or if this is the condition I will live in for the
rest of my life. I wanted to know about myself but I never expected to discover
this.
Please be aware that these are my personal observations. Others at the
Poland workshops may have different interpretations of what happened or what
Bert said. I'm not a therapist.
Regards
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Geltner [mailto:stuart108@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: 12 January 2005 22:12
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Rouqqia-
could you please explain your comment," The alcoholic was married to a
sweet faced multiple sclerosis sufferer, ie a murderer." I believe you are
describing the lady with MS a murderer, but I'm not clear if that's what you
are saying.
Thanks,
Stuart
On Jan 11, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Jennifer Altman wrote:
Dear Dianne,
There is a very helpful article about addictions and constellations by
Colette Green in the current issue (No 5) of the Systemic Solutions Bulletin.
You can order this from Barbara Morgan (barbara@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) or you
could contact Colette (colettegreen@xxxxxxxxxx). She discusses the personal and
systemic issues that leads to addiction and illustrates the complexity with a
case study of a constellation.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this illuminating discussion!
Warmly
Jen Altman
At 16:14 11/01/2005 +0000, you wrote:
Dear Rouqqia,
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I would like to complete the words of Bert about alcoholics.
In my experience there is a layer in every woman of despise against men -
out of loyalty in the long row of all the women.
(And vice versa, the men share common feelings - I think fear it the most
common and hidden.)
I had a constellation where the grandfather drunk himself to death but the
grandmother, the third wife after the first two had died, was full of love
towards him. I found it very important for the grandchild client who had
difficulties with man to bring to light also the layer of anger and contempt in
the grandmother. I proposed her the sentences “I love you very much. And when
you home drunken at night and stink out of the mouth, deep down there are
hatred and contempt.” The representative felt the sentences true.
If a woman marries an alcoholic she must have a certain loyalty to a woman
in her back. And she does not only share the attraction towards an alcoholic or
drug addict but also the anger and the contempt. This makes it as difficult for
a woman to respect such a man as it is difficult for a man to drop alcohol.
They are in the same boat.
Hello All
I recently went to a Bert Hellinger workshop and he was working with an
alcoholic. Bert said that alcoholics generally marry women who despise them.
They desperately need those women to respect them to get better, but invariably
the women won't do this because they despise men in general.
The alcoholic was married to a sweet faced multiple sclerosis sufferer, ie
a murderer.
Regards
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: 10 January 2005 17:59
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Diane,
I want to give just some ideas of mine. I do not work often with the
subject of alcohol. But when it comes I find it useful in the constellation to
give a sentence what the alcohol does good to someone.
F. e:”Drinking helps me not to feel my pain/my anger/my guilt” (and so on).
Or if somebody becomes violent with alcohol: “Drinking helps me to come out
with my anger.” Or: “I drunk myself to death.” So I try to find the right
context and by naming it, it becomes a little relief and more understandable.
Bertold
Thank you Sheila. I agree. What prompted the question is I had talked to
someone a year ago about getting involved in a recovery program, which never
happened. I saw an opportunity again this week and was wondering whether to
pursue it.
I remember one constellation where generations back a boy was molested by
his uncle. His father found out and killed the uncle and the boy was not
allowed to talk about it. He became an alcoholic, and so did his son and
grandson, who was the client's father, and the client married an alcoholic.
I guess what I meant by success was working within a program and being
accepted by the counselors and directors of the program.
Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message -----
From: sheila saunders
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
I have not worked specifically with someone regarding alcoholism. However,
this question "Has anyone had experience or success with..." is to my mind, 2
completely separate questions. Many facilitators have worked with alcolholic
clients. Bert has worked with so many in fact, that he was able to provide the
general observation that "alcoholics miss their father". I see alcoholism as
just another symptom like "I can't keep a job" or "I've always felt depressed",
and would work on it within the constellation of the family. As far as
"success" goes, I feel my attachment to "helping" or "changing" someone when I
find myself thinking in those terms. I have no idea what "success" means to
anyone, and I approach a constellation only with a spirit of discovery. How
the discovered information may be used in the workings of another's life, is
beyond what I actively explore. Sometimes a former client lets me know, and I
do invite them to do so after a time passes, and if they feel so inclined. I
consider myself succcessful in this work when I remain attentive to "what is",
to what is being revealed by the field. I feel successful when I have had the
courage to say what I see. I feel successful when a group gathers together in
which I can show the strength and integrity of this work.
I found one reference to alcoholism in Bert's book Supporting Love, :
Participant: My husband is an alcoholic. I can't stay with someone who
threatens me and is dependent on alcohol.
Hellinger: Yes, I think you're right. When one partner has a problem, such
as alcoholism, he or she can't demand that the partner stay. He or she has to
carry the consequences. If you confront him with the problem and say, "I'm
leaving the alcohol problem with you and I'm going," perhaps he can change. He
will carry the responsibility alone and get strength from that. It won't help
him for you to stay with him.
Just a few thoughts, Diane.
All the best in the New Year!! sheila
Sheila Saunders, RN, MFT
Systemic Family Solutions
sheila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.systemicfamilysolutions.com
Great Smokies Medical Center of Asheville
1312 Patton Ave. Asheville, NC. 28806
828-273-5015
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