Walter, The eye should be generated the same was as we already do. Just draw a diamond in the middle of it, instead of two horizontal lines. In this picture I show what I think the Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity parameter means with the two dashed lighter blue lines, and what I think the eye mask could be with the darker blue diamond in the middle, and optionally the horizontal lines above and below the eye on the top and bottom: [cid:image002.png@01CD0366.E49B4160] I agree, this is probably not difficult to achieve, but it is not in the specification. I think it may be worth adding it... Thanks, Arpad =============================================================== From: Walter Katz [mailto:wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 8:23 AM To: Muranyi, Arpad; ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Eye mask definition for IBIS-AMI Arpad, Defining a format to describe an eye mask is trivial. Can you explain exactly how the eye should be generated in both statistical and time domain AMI simulations, and how the eye mask should be applied to it? Walter From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]<mailto:[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]> On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:28 PM To: ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Eye mask definition for IBIS-AMI Greg, I am not sure we are discussing the same thing (correct me if I am missing something in your thoughts). The Eye Mask I am talking about basically describes the input characteristics of the stage that follows the Rx AMI model. It would specify what its Vinh/Vinl and Setup/Hold times are with respect to the clock tick that is used to latch the data. Our current specification already has Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity, which defines the +/- voltage value around the nominal threshold level (or Vref, if you want to call it that). The way I understand this is that: Vref + Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity = Vinh Vref - Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity = Vinl for the input that "reads" the output of Rx AMI. What we seem to be missing in the IBIS-AMI spec is a parameter that does the same for the timing aspect for this input. What is the Setup and Hold for this input to actually get the correct logic interpretation for the waveform that it sees? My point is that if we have "Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity", we should also have a corresponding timing parameter. If we put all these together, we basically arrived at an eye mask definition... Thanks, Arpad ================================================================== From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]<mailto:[mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]> On Behalf Of Gregory R Edlund Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:55 PM To: Muranyi, Arpad Cc: ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Eye mask definition for IBIS-AMI Let's ask the question another way: if jitter and noise limits are NOT stored in the AMI model somewhere, how does the user get that information? By calling an application engineer, probably. And the AE may need to check with the circuit designer. It's easy for the information to get stale. The flip side is that suppliers may be unwilling to disclose jitter and noise limits. Then again, users often have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to get the AMI model in the first place, so that may not be a strong argument. Greg Edlund Senior Engineer Signal Integrity and System Timing IBM Systems & Technology Group 3605 Hwy. 52 N Bldg 050-3 Rochester, MN 55901 [Inactive hide details for "Muranyi, Arpad" ---03/14/2012 12:25:18 PM---Hello Everyone, I would like to solicit for some more co]"Muranyi, Arpad" ---03/14/2012 12:25:18 PM---Hello Everyone, I would like to solicit for some more comments on this From: "Muranyi, Arpad" <Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx>> To: "ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>" <ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> Date: 03/14/2012 12:25 PM Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Eye mask definition for IBIS-AMI Sent by: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ________________________________ Hello Everyone, I would like to solicit for some more comments on this question. So far I heard one general response that it is a good idea, and a very specific response with a syntax suggestion, but I would like to get a few more responses on whether it would make sense to add an eye mask definition to the IBIS-AMI specification. The reason I am asking for more comments along these lines is because last time I brought this topic up the majority of the responses were along the lines of "not needed", "useless" etc... However, the more I think of this, the more it seems that this would actually be useful, especially since we already have vertical half of the eye mask definition present in the Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity parameter. Is there a reason we shouldn't include the horizontal (timing) aspects of the eye opening requirement in addition to what we already have for the vertical (voltage) requirement? Thanks, Arpad ============================================================= -----Original Message----- From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:43 AM To: colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx>; ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Eye mask definition for IBIS-AMI Colin, Thanks for the suggestion. However, before discussing the format and syntax of the eye mask definition, I would like to get comments on the idea itself, such as do we all agree that we should do this, do we agree on what the eye mask means, etc... Once we agree, we could hammer out the details of the syntax. Thanks, Arpad =================================================== -----Original Message----- From: colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:colin_warwick@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:29 AM To: Muranyi, Arpad; ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: Eye mask definition for IBIS-AMI Hello Arpad, Our 'scope *msk files look like this: /* Top Polygon */ /* Polygon Number */ 1 /* Number of vertices */ 4 +0.0, 0.6 +0.0, 0.5 +1.0, 0.5 +1.0, 0.6 /* Middle Polygon */ 2 /* Number of vertices */ 6 /* X1, Yt */ 0.300 , 0.000 /* X2, Y+ */ 0.500 , 0.073 /* 1-X2, Y+ */ 0.500 , 0.073 /* 1-X1, Yt */ 0.700 , 0.000 /* 1-X2, Y- */ 0.500 , -0.073 /* X2, Y- */ 0.500 , -0.073 /* Bottom Polygon */ /* Polygon Number */ 3 /* Number of vertices */ 4 +0.0, -0.6 +0.0, -0.5 +1.0, -0.5 +1.0, -0.6 I don't know if the spec is published or not nor whether there's IP in the spec (I'm in the EEsof division). But if this format is of interest, I can ask my 'scopes colleagues to get involved. -- Colin Warwick Agilent EEsof EDA http://signal-integrity.tm.agilent.com -----Original Message----- From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:43 PM To: IBIS-ATM Subject: [ibis-macro] Eye mask definition for IBIS-AMI Hello everyone, We had a few conversations on this topic in the past on this email reflector and also in the IBIS-ATM meetings, but the discussions didn't result in any actions as far as the specification is concerned. I would like to bring this topic up again because to me it seems that we have an incomplete "solution" for this in the IBIS specification. Currently, we have an AMI parameter in specification called "Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity". Pg. 147 describes this parameter like this: | Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity can be of Usage Info and Out and of | Type Float and of Data Format Value, Range and Corner. | Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity tells the EDA platform the voltage | needed at the receiver data decision point to ensure proper | sampling of the equalized signal. In other words, this is basically the Vinh and Vinl of the core's input stage that is connected to the output of the Rx buffer which contains all the fun stuff, the filter(s), DFE, CDR, etc... Since the AMI simulation's output waveform goes into this input, the eye opening we get from the AMI simulations better be above and below +/-Rx_Receiver_Sensitivity, otherwise this input stage will not be able to interpret the signals correctly. However, there is nothing in the AMI specification which would help us to evaluate the timing relationship requirements between these waveforms and the clock ticks. In other words, we have no information about what the setup and hold times are supposed to be around the sampling point for this input stage to recognize the signal correctly. To me it would make sense to define a complete eye mask which would include a definition for the width of the eye (time) and its time relationship to the clock ticks as well as for its height (voltage). I would be willing to write a BIRD for this, but before I begin, I would like to have a little brainstorming session to collect some ideas on how people would deal with this and what we should put into the specification. As a bare minimum, I would like to propose a set of parameters which defines the shape of a diamond, laying on its side: ********* * * * * * * * * * * ********* For the voltages we could have a high/low level and DC offset and for the timing we could have a left/right corner and the beginning and end points of the horizontal lines. This could be achieved with seven parameters. I could see a few additional parameters for a more elaborate definition, but for now I will leave it at that. Questions, comments welcome. Thanks, Arpad ================================================================ --------------------------------------------------------------------- IBIS Macro website : http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/macromodel_wip/ IBIS Macro reflector: //www.freelists.org/list/ibis-macro To unsubscribe send an email: To: ibis-macro-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: unsubscribe --------------------------------------------------------------------- IBIS Macro website : http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/macromodel_wip/ IBIS Macro reflector: //www.freelists.org/list/ibis-macro To unsubscribe send an email: To: ibis-macro-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: unsubscribe --------------------------------------------------------------------- IBIS Macro website : http://www.eda.org/pub/ibis/macromodel_wip/ IBIS Macro reflector: //www.freelists.org/list/ibis-macro To unsubscribe send an email: To: ibis-macro-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: unsubscribe