[ibis-macro] Minutes from the 4 May and 11 May 2010 ibis-atm meetings
- From: "Mike LaBonte (milabont)" <milabont@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:38:29 -0500
Minutes from the 4 May and 11 May 2010 ibis-atm meetings are attached.
Mike
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 11 May 2010
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Adge Hawes, IBM
Ambrish Varma, Cadence Design Systems
Anders Ekholm, Ericsson
* Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corp.
Barry Katz, SiSoft
Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Brad Brim, Sigrity
Brad Griffin, Cadence Design Systems
Chris Herrick, Ansoft
Chris McGrath, Synopsys
Danil Kirsanov, Ansoft
David Banas, Xilinx
Deepak Ramaswany, Ansoft
Donald Telian, consultant
Doug White, Cisco Systems
Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens Networks
Eckhard Miersch, Sigrity
Essaid Bensoudane, ST Microelectronics
Fangyi Rao, Agilent
Ganesh Narayanaswamy, ST Micro
Gang Kang, Sigrity
Hemant Shah, Cadence Design Systems
Ian Dodd, consultant
Jerry Chuang, Xilinx
Joe Abler, IBM
* John Angulo, Mentor Graphics
John Shields, Mentor Graphics
* Ken Willis, Sigrity
Kellee Crisafulli, Celsionix
Kumar Keshavan, Sigrity
Lance Wang, Cadence Design Systems
Luis Boluna, Cisco Systems
Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp.
* Mike LaBonte, Cisco Systems
Mike Steinberger, SiSoft
Mustansir Fanaswalla, Xilinx
Patrick O'Halloran, Tiburon Design Automation
Paul Fernando, NCSU
Pavani Jella, TI
Radek Biernacki, Agilent (EESof)
* Randy Wolff, Micron Technology
Ray Komow, Cadence Design Systems
Richard Mellitz, Intel
Richard Ward, Texas Instruments
Samuel Mertens, Ansoft
Sam Chitwood, Sigrity
Sanjeev Gupta, Agilent
Scott McMorrow, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Shangli Wu, Cadence Design Systems
Sid Singh, Extreme Networks
Stephen Scearce, Cisco Systems
Steve Kaufer, Mentor Graphics
Steve Pytel, Ansoft
Syed Huq, Cisco Systems
Syed Sadeghi, ST Micro
Ted Mido, Synopsys
Terry Jernberg, Cadence Design Systems
Todd Westerhoff, SiSoft
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov, Mentor Graphics
Vikas Gupta, Xilinx
Vuk Borich, Agilent
* Walter Katz, SiSoft
Wenyi Jin, LSI Logic
Zhen Mu, Mentor Graphics
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- Arpad: What would be a quorum for our group?
- Randy: For the Open Forum it is 5
- Mike: The Quality Task Group uses 3
- We decided we had a quorum
- Walter: Would like to discuss IBIS Spice Subcircuits
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- No one declared a patent.
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Arpad: Write parameter passing syntax proposal (BIRD draft)
for *-AMS models in IBIS that is consistent with the
parameter passing syntax of the AMI models
- TBD
- TBD: Propose a parameter passing syntax for the SPICE
- [External ...] also?
- TBD
- Arpad: Review the documentation (annotation) in the macro libraries.
- Deferred until a demand arises or we have nothing else to do
-------------
New Discussion:
IBIS Spice Subcircuits:
- Walter: Can we consider the ISS BIRD ready for submission?
- Arpad: There were some unanswered questions
- Bob felt we should clarify those before the Open Forum gets it
- Walter: We need to get past this
- Maybe a discussion in Open Forum would be good
- Mike: Years ago we had lengthy technical discussions in Open Forum meetings
- Currently there is little technical discussion there
- Many of the same people are in both meetings
- Arpad: There was a push at one point to avoid technical details
- Walter: The DAC summit is coming up
- Arpad: There are still ambiguities in this BIRD
- Walter: Does anyone have a list of the ambiguities?
- Mike: I could compile related sections from the minutes
- Walter: It would be best to start at the end
- Mike: Should it go to the list or just the attendees?
- Arpad: The list is OK
- Randy: At the end we were waiting for feedback from companies
- Arpad: The latest ISS spec version is Aug 11, 2009
AR: Mike compile comments on ISS from minutes
Arpad: I was expecting more feedback on the flow diagram
- There was debate about the spreadsheet vs. equation box formats
- Mike: Can we have both?
- People have legitimate reasons to prefer one over the other
- Arpad: My goal is not to follow flow diagram symbols
- One suggestion was to have equations along the flow lines
- Mike: Ambrish liked a previous flow style version
- Arpad: With changes
- It can be a lot of work to maintain two versions
- There are a lot of booleans, making for many possibilities
- Walter: It would be best to document two categories:
- Statistical with Init_Returns_Filter
- Time domain where TX and RX GetWave exist
- Mike: Does this cover all cases?
- Walter: Everything else can be figured out
- It's too complicated to document everything
- Arpad: We can't leave anything undocumented
- Walter: Or we can go back to what we had in November
- As though Init_Returns_Filter does not exist
- We could revote on it
- Arpad: It's important that Use_Init_Output has been clarified
- Walter: Use_Init_Output was a bad thing to have
- It should always be False
- Arpad: Also the addition of Init_Returns_Impulse is good
- Arpad: There were no technical comments from last week
- Mike: Should it be settled by a smaller group?
- Arpad: We don't want to have a wrestling match there
- Ken: Equations will be added to the flow from last week?
- Arpad: Yes
Next meeting: 18 May 2010 12:00pm PT
--------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 04 May 2010
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Adge Hawes, IBM
Y* Ambrish Varma, Cadence Design Systems
Y* Anders Ekholm, Ericsson
* Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corp.
Barry Katz, SiSoft
Y* Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Brad Brim, Sigrity
Brad Griffin, Cadence Design Systems
Chris Herrick, Ansoft
Chris McGrath, Synopsys
Y* Danil Kirsanov, Ansoft
David Banas, Xilinx
Deepak Ramaswany, Ansoft
Donald Telian, consultant
Doug White, Cisco Systems
Y* Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens Networks
Eckhard Miersch, Sigrity
Essaid Bensoudane, ST Microelectronics
Y* Fangyi Rao, Agilent
Ganesh Narayanaswamy, ST Micro
Gang Kang, Sigrity
Hemant Shah, Cadence Design Systems
Ian Dodd, consultant
Jerry Chuang, Xilinx
Joe Abler, IBM
Y* John Angulo, Mentor Graphics
John Shields, Mentor Graphics
Y* Ken Willis, Sigrity
Kellee Crisafulli, Celsionix
Kumar Keshavan, Sigrity
Lance Wang, Cadence Design Systems
Luis Boluna, Cisco Systems
Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp.
Y* Mike LaBonte, Cisco Systems
Mike Steinberger, SiSoft
Mustansir Fanaswalla, Xilinx
Patrick O'Halloran, Tiburon Design Automation
Paul Fernando, NCSU
Pavani Jella, TI
Radek Biernacki, Agilent (EESof)
Y* Randy Wolff, Micron Technology
Ray Komow, Cadence Design Systems
Richard Mellitz, Intel
Richard Ward, Texas Instruments
Samuel Mertens, Ansoft
Sam Chitwood, Sigrity
Sanjeev Gupta, Agilent
* Scott McMorrow, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Shangli Wu, Cadence Design Systems
Sid Singh, Extreme Networks
Stephen Scearce, Cisco Systems
Steve Kaufer, Mentor Graphics
Steve Pytel, Ansoft
Syed Huq, Cisco Systems
Syed Sadeghi, ST Micro
Ted Mido, Synopsys
Terry Jernberg, Cadence Design Systems
* Todd Westerhoff, SiSoft
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov, Mentor Graphics
Vikas Gupta, Xilinx
Vuk Borich, Agilent
Y* Walter Katz, SiSoft
Wenyi Jin, LSI Logic
Zhen Mu, Mentor Graphics
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- Mike asked if there would be a meeting next week
- The European summit is Wednesday
- Not able to attend: Bob, Danil, Eckhard, Anders
- There will be a meeting next week
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- No one declared a patent.
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Scott to rewrite clock times BIRD
- Arpad has not heard from Scott
- We will not vote on it today
- Arpad update truth table based on discussion from last week
- Done, will cover today
- Arpad: Write parameter passing syntax proposal (BIRD draft)
for *-AMS models in IBIS that is consistent with the
parameter passing syntax of the AMI models
- TBD
- TBD: Propose a parameter passing syntax for the SPICE
- [External ...] also?
- TBD
- Arpad: Review the documentation (annotation) in the macro libraries.
- Deferred until a demand arises or we have nothing else to do
-------------
New Discussion:
Arpad showed the clock_times BIRD:
- Scott: There was feedback about language consistency with the IBIS spec
- No other changes were made
- Arpad: What should the EDA tool do when clocks are missing?
- There may be an interruption in the clock returns
- Scott: The tool has two choices:
1) A receiver might never produce clocks
- The tool should interpret the eye pattern to recover the clock
2) Treat it like the trigger point on an oscilloscope
- Statistically this is the right way
- Arpad: Is there a problem discarding clock ticks?
- Scott: Having no clock tick may mean the bit is ignored by the receiver:
- A bit error check would tell if something is wrong
- Walter: Since this is GetWave we are not doing statistical analysis
- Scott: It is still valid to analyze time domain data statistically
- To extrapolate BER profiles for example
- Walter: Always thought it would emulate a real TDR
- Arpad: Vladimir sent email:
"Walter said that every EDA platform should give the same results"
- Walter: Only the DLL output must be the same:
- An error every 10e6 is a disaster
- Any missing ticks are a problem
- Parallel clock recovery is still valuable though
- Scott: It would work like a compliance measurement
- These are designed to force aberrant behavior
- We might want to force CDR out of lock
- Arpad: Should we write something in the BIRD about this?
- Scott: That should be left to EDA vendors
- Walter: Models that miss clock ticks should have comments
- Arpad: Are we ready to vote on submitting this?
- Mike: It is Scott's BIRD, do we need to vote?
- Arpad: We should be clear about if we all agree with this
- Scott: It may help for people to know that the group approves
Arpad called for a vote on whether this group approves of the clock_times
BIRD proposed by Scott McMorrow:
- Votes:
Cadence Design Systems Yes
Ericsson Yes
Teraspeed Consulting Group Yes
Ansoft Yes
Nokia-Siemens Networks Yes
Agilent Yes
Mentor Graphics Yes
Sigrity Yes
Cisco Systems Yes
Micron Technology Yes
SiSoft Yes
- The group approved unanimously
Arpad showed the truth table spreadsheet:
- Row 14:
- Arpad: Should we require min <= default <= max?
- Todd: Why should we let default be an illegal value?
- We accepted the rule
- Rows 16 & 17:
- Arpad: Blue comments come from emails
- They constitute a disagreement
- Walter: There are two different things here:
- Default must be in legal format
- If Format is specified Default must be an allowed value
- If no Default, Value is not needed, and vice-versa
- Files written to 5.0 will satisfy this rule
- Arpad: Why do we need a Default where nothing is passed to the DLL?
Arpad showed the AMI flow document:
- Arpad: Truth table on slide 3
- This differs from Ambrish
- Do we agree on this?
- Todd: This is correct, but:
- Because Init_Returns_Impulse is placed in memory, the tool doesn't have
to make flow decisions
- This is not good coding practice though
- Ambrish: Agree
- Statistical and time domain are separate flows
- We should have separate tables for these
- Fangyi: The T/F in the outside boxes are not needed
- Todd: Separate statistical and time domain tables would be easier to
understand
- Arpad: A single page can be seen all at once
- Fangyi: Init calls are sequential in time domain
- So not all combinations would be needed
- Todd: This will get complicated when we have GetWave digital input
- We should generate both tables to see if they are redundant
- Ambrish: Can we have truth tables that are not in a box?
- Arpad: We have to spell out the steps between function calls
- Fangyi: The flow is more important than the truth table
- The one Ambrish sent was like that
- Arpad: The T/F in the TX Init box is because it outputs different things
- Mike: In flow diagrams the lines are usually labeled to show that
- Arpad: TX Init and Rx_Init might both output different equations
- Fangyi: That is the choice of the model, not the simulator
- Arpad: So we should say nothing about what is convolved?
- Fangyi: Right
- Ambrish: Right
- Todd: The flow in current spec is correct for analog input to TX GetWave
- Fangyi: Right
- Ambrish: Right
- Arpad: Then we need no changes?
- Todd: We need to clarify statistical
- TX GetWave is not functional in the current spec for analog
Next meeting: 11 May 2010 12:00pm PT
--------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
Other related posts:
- » [ibis-macro] Minutes from the 4 May and 11 May 2010 ibis-atm meetings - Mike LaBonte (milabont)
