[ibis-macro] sending recent minutes documents
- From: "Mike LaBonte (milabont)" <milabont@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:02:07 -0500
Recently I noted that some minutes documents had been posted to the
ibis-atm website, but not sent to the list as attachments. Here are the
unsent attachments.
Mike
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 01 June 2010
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Adge Hawes, IBM
* Ambrish Varma, Cadence Design Systems
* Anders Ekholm, Ericsson
* Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corp.
Barry Katz, SiSoft
* Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Brad Brim, Sigrity
Brad Griffin, Cadence Design Systems
Chris Herrick, Ansoft
Chris McGrath, Synopsys
* Danil Kirsanov, Ansoft
David Banas, Xilinx
Deepak Ramaswany, Ansoft
Donald Telian, consultant
Doug White, Cisco Systems
* Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens Networks
Eckhard Miersch, Sigrity
Essaid Bensoudane, ST Microelectronics
* Fangyi Rao, Agilent
Ganesh Narayanaswamy, ST Micro
Gang Kang, Sigrity
Hemant Shah, Cadence Design Systems
Ian Dodd, consultant
Jerry Chuang, Xilinx
Joe Abler, IBM
John Angulo, Mentor Graphics
John Shields, Mentor Graphics
* Ken Willis, Sigrity
Kellee Crisafulli, Celsionix
Kumar Keshavan, Sigrity
Lance Wang, Cadence Design Systems
Luis Boluna, Cisco Systems
* Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp.
* Mike LaBonte, Cisco Systems
Mike Steinberger, SiSoft
Mustansir Fanaswalla, Xilinx
Patrick O'Halloran, Tiburon Design Automation
Paul Fernando, NCSU
Pavani Jella, TI
Radek Biernacki, Agilent (EESof)
* Randy Wolff, Micron Technology
Ray Komow, Cadence Design Systems
Richard Mellitz, Intel
Richard Ward, Texas Instruments
Samuel Mertens, Ansoft
Sam Chitwood, Sigrity
Sanjeev Gupta, Agilent
Scott McMorrow, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Shangli Wu, Cadence Design Systems
Sid Singh, Extreme Networks
Stephen Scearce, Cisco Systems
Steve Kaufer, Mentor Graphics
Steve Pytel, Ansoft
Syed Huq, Cisco Systems
Syed Sadeghi, ST Micro
Ted Mido, Synopsys
Terry Jernberg, Cadence Design Systems
Todd Westerhoff, SiSoft
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov, Mentor Graphics
Vikas Gupta, Xilinx
Vuk Borich, Agilent
* Walter Katz, SiSoft
Wenyi Jin, LSI Logic
Zhen Mu, Mentor Graphics
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- Bob: Should discuss IBIS summit
- Presenters must make their own handout copies
- Arpad: Do we need to go over summit presentations?
- Walter: My BIRDs will be discussed in that context
- Arpad: I just emailed an AMI flow update to discuss
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- No one declared a patent.
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Arpad: update AMI flow diagram and text
- Haven't started chapter 2 yet
- Mike: post BIRDs from Walter
- Haven't received any
- Ones recently sent to list can be posted
- Arpad: Update section 2 text based on updated AMI flow
- In progress
- Arpad: Write parameter passing syntax proposal (BIRD draft)
for *-AMS models in IBIS that is consistent with the
parameter passing syntax of the AMI models
- TBD: Propose a parameter passing syntax for the SPICE
- [External ...] also?
- TBD
- Arpad: Review the documentation (annotation) in the macro libraries.
- Deferred until a demand arises or we have nothing else to do
-------------
New Discussion:
Walter introduced 4 BIRDs:
- Our previous large BIRD has been split into 4 BIRDs
- Will be explained at the upcoming summit
Walter showed the IBIS-AMI Keyword Labels Clarification BIRD:
- Walter: It helps to give names to items in a list
- These are like column names
- Michael M: Are there any examples?
- Walter: I will add that
Walter showed the IBIS-AMI Keyword Format Clarification BIRD:
- Clarifies that Format is optional
- Arpad: The wording is a little confusing
- This is not about how to interpret the spec
Walter showed the IBIS-AMI String Clarification BIRD:
- IBIS 5.0 does not say String has to have double-quotes
- Quotes are not needed if there is no whitespace, etc.
- Arpad: Examples would help
- How do we distinguish between string literals and keywords?
- Walter used CSV spreadsheet conventions to explain.
- Bob: This is not for descriptions?
- Walter: It is only for String param values
- John: Disagree that this is unreadable
- Walter type some examples
- Fangyi: The current spec says where quotes are needed
- Walter: Not for parameters, but for everything else
- Fangyi: Would this hint that quotes are optional for strings sent to DLLs?
- Walter:
- Bob: The parser developer may have trouble
- Arpad: The double quotes are not passed into the DLL?
- Walter: The EDA tool adds quotes
- Arpad: So the DLL removes them on input?
- Walter: Correct
Walter showed the IBIS-AMI Value Default Clarification BIRD:
- Specifies when to use Default and when to use Value
- This is the only BIRD that would require an IBIS parser change
- Ambrish: We don't have Value as a separate field
- Walter: We have Format
- Arpad: Info can't be changed by the tool
- Walter: Someone could suggest that change too
- That doesn't seem important
- Arpad: It's a little embarrassing to have a Default for a value that can't
be changed
Walter showed Arpad's updated AMI flow diagrams:
- Arpad: There are second rows of T/F/X to show the range of inputs
- Fangyi: Is TTF missing?
- Arpad: That was never in our truth table
- Fangyi: It's legal
- Arpad: We have TXF, so that includes TTF
- How can we have F for Use_Init_Output, which is ignored for statistical?
- Walter: At the summit I will propose some best practice changes
- It will not change the logic of this table
- Bob: We need to say how the EDA tool will interpret this
- Just saying it is a don't care doesn't give that
- Arpad: I delete TXF because it is described above
- John: We should try to who AMI file content if possible
- Arpad: Page 4 the third column is grayed out
- Arpad: We agreed with the remaining slides last time
- Arpad: I added one more truth table for statistical only
Bob: Is the text part of the flow BIRD ready?
- Arpad: That may be ready next week
Arpad: Do we need to discuss anything ahead of the summit?
- Nothing
Next meeting: 8 June 2010 12:00pm PT
--------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 08 June 2010
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Adge Hawes, IBM
* Ambrish Varma, Cadence Design Systems
Anders Ekholm, Ericsson
* Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corp.
Barry Katz, SiSoft
Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Brad Brim, Sigrity
Brad Griffin, Cadence Design Systems
Chris Herrick, Ansoft
Chris McGrath, Synopsys
* Danil Kirsanov, Ansoft
David Banas, Xilinx
Deepak Ramaswany, Ansoft
Donald Telian, consultant
Doug White, Cisco Systems
* Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens Networks
Eckhard Miersch, Sigrity
Essaid Bensoudane, ST Microelectronics
Fangyi Rao, Agilent
Ganesh Narayanaswamy, ST Micro
Gang Kang, Sigrity
Hemant Shah, Cadence Design Systems
Ian Dodd, consultant
Jerry Chuang, Xilinx
Joe Abler, IBM
* John Angulo, Mentor Graphics
John Shields, Mentor Graphics
* Ken Willis, Sigrity
Kellee Crisafulli, Celsionix
Kumar Keshavan, Sigrity
Lance Wang, Cadence Design Systems
Luis Boluna, Cisco Systems
* Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp.
* Mike LaBonte, Cisco Systems
Mike Steinberger, SiSoft
Mustansir Fanaswalla, Xilinx
Patrick O'Halloran, Tiburon Design Automation
Paul Fernando, NCSU
Pavani Jella, TI
Radek Biernacki, Agilent (EESof)
Randy Wolff, Micron Technology
Ray Komow, Cadence Design Systems
Richard Mellitz, Intel
Richard Ward, Texas Instruments
Samuel Mertens, Ansoft
Sam Chitwood, Sigrity
Sanjeev Gupta, Agilent
Scott McMorrow, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Shangli Wu, Cadence Design Systems
Sid Singh, Extreme Networks
Stephen Scearce, Cisco Systems
Steve Kaufer, Mentor Graphics
Steve Pytel, Ansoft
Syed Huq, Cisco Systems
Syed Sadeghi, ST Micro
Ted Mido, Synopsys
Terry Jernberg, Cadence Design Systems
* Todd Westerhoff, SiSoft
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov, Mentor Graphics
Vikas Gupta, Xilinx
Vuk Borich, Agilent
* Walter Katz, SiSoft
Wenyi Jin, LSI Logic
Zhen Mu, Mentor Graphics
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- Bob: We should cover the DAC IBIS summit
- Arpad's presentation may start earlier
- Adge Hawes will present
- Arpad: The location has changed?
- Bob: It is at the Hilton this time, not Marriott
- Todd: Will we be at 2:45?
- Ours may have some discussion
- Bob: Yes
- Some presentations are shorter than expected
- Presenters need to bring 20 copies
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- No one declared a patent.
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Arpad: update AMI flow diagram and text
- Done
- Arpad: BIRD text update
- In progress
- Mike: post BIRDs from Walter
- Have not seen explicit post requests
- Arpad: They have circulated on the list
- Arpad: Update section 2 text based on updated AMI flow
- In progress
- Arpad: Write parameter passing syntax proposal (BIRD draft)
for *-AMS models in IBIS that is consistent with the
parameter passing syntax of the AMI models
- TBD: Propose a parameter passing syntax for the SPICE
- [External ...] also?
- TBD
- Arpad: Review the documentation (annotation) in the macro libraries.
- Deferred until a demand arises or we have nothing else to do
-------------
New Discussion:
Michael M discussed ISS document editing:
- Michael M: Are we allowed to alter formatting of Synopsys content?
- To resemble a formal spec it would have to change
- Mike L: If we have permission to change words we must have format permission
- Bob: We should be able to make some changes while retaining look and feel
- Walter: We got permission to use it with no known constraints
- As long as we don't change the words
- Todd: I can check with Synopsys
Arpad showed the IBIS-ATM task group report for the DAC IBIS summit:
- Two slides including the cover
- Topics:
- No technical work on ISS since August, Michael M picking it up
- Group is divided on AMI issues
- BIRD 112 submitted by Scott McMorrow
- Hope to vote on submitting AMI Flow BIRD 6/22
Arpad showed the text of the AMI Flow BIRD draft:
- Arpad: Added a second paragraph clarifying that 2.3 covers several modes
- Asterisks are not used because most lines have changed
- 2.1.4 mentions .ami files
- Eckhard: 2.3 could be before 2.1
- Arpad: It would be better not to start with too much detail
- Ken: It may be less confusing to have the flow first
- Could 2.3 be exhaustive enough to replace 2.1 and 2.2?
- Arpad: They are more detailed than they should be for an overview
- It seems like it could be moved
- Todd: These are two different views of the same thing
- Walter: We should keep these to document 2 of the 64 possible flows
- Todd: 2.1 and 2.2 describe interactions with individual models
- It's not a flow description
- 2.3 was added when we found the Use_Init_Output double counting problem
- Ken: Does either have something not in the other?
- Ambrish: They are just different views
- Arpad: I don't know if we have to get into this level of detail
- Ambrish: The model has to take care of it
- Walter: 2.2 should say how to interact with a non-varying model
- Ambrish: Section 2 should be about how models work
- Section 3 should be the system overview
- Walter: This should be organized by the type of case at hand
- Arpad: 2.3 step 2 covers several different cases
- John: We are laying groundwork in 2.1 and 2.2 for 2.3
- Arpad: Model makers and EDA tool writers are different audiences
- Leaning toward a concise spec
- Walter: 2.1 and 2.2 are about how the DLL is called
- Arpad: We can renumber and change some titles
- 2.1 and 2.2 could be rewritten a little
- Walter: The content in 2.1 and 2.2 is good
- Ambrish: The title for section 2 could be better than "Application Scenarios"
AR: Arpad update AMI Flow BIRD text
Arpad explained changes to description of GetWave_Exists:
- Walter: Disagree with the change made
- It should say Use_Init_Output "has no meaning" instead of "must be set to
True"
- This does not clarify the spec, it changes it
- Arpad: We had agreed to this in the flow diagram
- Walter: I only agreed to the flows
- Todd: Page 182 says what Arpad has written
- Walter: Step 3 is a GetWave call
- Todd: 2.3 is TD whether or not GetWave exists
- Ambrish: There is a discrepancy between the flow and the definition
- Todd: And the flow does not deal with digital input
- Arpad: The outcome is the same regardless of how we view it
AR: Arpad start email thread on philosophy regarding GetWave_Exists
Next meeting: 22 June 2010 12:00pm PT
--------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 22 June 2010
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Adge Hawes, IBM
* Ambrish Varma, Cadence Design Systems
* Anders Ekholm, Ericsson
* Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corp.
Barry Katz, SiSoft
* Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Brad Brim, Sigrity
Brad Griffin, Cadence Design Systems
Chris Herrick, Ansoft
Chris McGrath, Synopsys
Danil Kirsanov, Ansoft
David Banas, Xilinx
Deepak Ramaswany, Ansoft
Donald Telian, consultant
Doug White, Cisco Systems
* Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens Networks
Eckhard Miersch, Sigrity
Essaid Bensoudane, ST Microelectronics
* Fangyi Rao, Agilent
Ganesh Narayanaswamy, ST Micro
Gang Kang, Sigrity
Hemant Shah, Cadence Design Systems
Ian Dodd, consultant
Jerry Chuang, Xilinx
Joe Abler, IBM
* John Angulo, Mentor Graphics
John Shields, Mentor Graphics
Ken Willis, Sigrity
Kellee Crisafulli, Celsionix
Kumar Keshavan, Sigrity
Lance Wang, Cadence Design Systems
Luis Boluna, Cisco Systems
Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp.
* Mike LaBonte, Cisco Systems
Mike Steinberger, SiSoft
Mustansir Fanaswalla, Xilinx
Patrick O'Halloran, Tiburon Design Automation
Paul Fernando, NCSU
Pavani Jella, TI
Radek Biernacki, Agilent (EESof)
Randy Wolff, Micron Technology
Ray Komow, Cadence Design Systems
Richard Mellitz, Intel
Richard Ward, Texas Instruments
Samuel Mertens, Ansoft
Sam Chitwood, Sigrity
Sanjeev Gupta, Agilent
Scott McMorrow, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Shangli Wu, Cadence Design Systems
Sid Singh, Extreme Networks
Stephen Scearce, Cisco Systems
Steve Kaufer, Mentor Graphics
Steve Pytel, Ansoft
Syed Huq, Cisco Systems
Syed Sadeghi, ST Micro
Ted Mido, Synopsys
Terry Jernberg, Cadence Design Systems
* Todd Westerhoff, SiSoft
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov, Mentor Graphics
Vikas Gupta, Xilinx
Vuk Borich, Agilent
* Walter Katz, SiSoft
Wenyi Jin, LSI Logic
Zhen Mu, Mentor Graphics
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- None
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- No one declared a patent.
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Arpad: update AMI Flow BIRD text
- Done
- Arpad: start email thread on philosophy regarding GetWave_Exists
- Not sure what this was about
- Arpad: BIRD text update
- In progress
- Arpad: Update section 2 text based on updated AMI flow
- In progress
- Arpad: Write parameter passing syntax proposal (BIRD draft)
for *-AMS models in IBIS that is consistent with the
parameter passing syntax of the AMI models
- TBD: Propose a parameter passing syntax for the SPICE
- [External ...] also?
- TBD
- Arpad: Review the documentation (annotation) in the macro libraries.
- Deferred until a demand arises or we have nothing else to do
-------------
New Discussion:
Arpad showed "A problem in AMI Flow 7j":
- This is posted in the work archive
- Slide 3:
- What boolean controls are correct for Rx Init with optimization?
- It receives unmodified impulse response to avoid deconvolution
- Slide 4:
- Dilemma at input to Rx Init
- hREI(t) depends on what hTEI(t) is
- Slide 5:
- Option 1: We have no way to know if Rx Init has optimization
- Option 2: Sometimes would require deconvolution
- Option 3: Even more deconvolution
- Option 4: No deconvolution
- Todd: Could end up with deconvolution with Init_Returns_Filter
- Arpad: Not a 100% fool-proof solution
- Slide 6:
- First paragraph is what we have today
- Rx Init would take separate filter and optimizer matrixes
- Slide 7:
- Using this drawing style to show other cases
- Arpad: Would like to conclude this today
- Fangyi: Init doesn't know if the mode is statistical or TD
- Arpad: True, but the arrows are different in each case
- Arpad and Fangyi decided it is OK as is
- Ambrish: Does the Rx model maker have to know what the Tx does?
- Arpad: No
- The Tx model may have a duplication in Init and GetWave
- Tx Init output should not propagate to rest of flow
- Walter: It's hard to validate these complex diagrams
- Recommendations in 3 recent papers:
- Sigrity
- Agilent
- SiSoft (Opal)
- Internal vendor flows are well documented
- Model makers departing from those should document what they do
Arpad showed Opal Flows:
- Walter: It is easy to see the 9 flow combinations in a spreadsheet
- Better to deconvolution inside the tool than the model
- Arpad: Should EDA tools ignore booleans and use this table?
- Walter showed an Opal Flows spreadsheet
- IC vendors should follow these recommendations
- We are stuck because we can't deprecate
- If they don't they have to document
- Arpad: We need to fix our spec
- Opal is not a spec
- Walter: We should not work so hard to support our mistakes
- Some deprecation should be allowed
- Arpad: I would appreciate feedback on the flow diagrams
- Bob: This needs to be wrapped up because it goes into IBIS
- Arpad: I write write the text BIRD now
AR: Arpad update AMI Flows and AMI BIRD text
Next meeting: 29 June 2010 12:00pm PT
--------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 29 June 2010
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Adge Hawes, IBM
* Ambrish Varma, Cadence Design Systems
* Anders Ekholm, Ericsson
* Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corp.
Barry Katz, SiSoft
* Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Brad Brim, Sigrity
Brad Griffin, Cadence Design Systems
Chris Herrick, Ansoft
Chris McGrath, Synopsys
Danil Kirsanov, Ansoft
David Banas, Xilinx
Deepak Ramaswany, Ansoft
Donald Telian, consultant
Doug White, Cisco Systems
Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens Networks
Eckhard Miersch, Sigrity
Essaid Bensoudane, ST Microelectronics
Fangyi Rao, Agilent
Ganesh Narayanaswamy, ST Micro
Gang Kang, Sigrity
Hemant Shah, Cadence Design Systems
Ian Dodd, consultant
Jerry Chuang, Xilinx
Joe Abler, IBM
* John Angulo, Mentor Graphics
John Shields, Mentor Graphics
* Ken Willis, Sigrity
Kellee Crisafulli, Celsionix
Kumar Keshavan, Sigrity
Lance Wang, Cadence Design Systems
Luis Boluna, Cisco Systems
Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp.
* Mike LaBonte, Cisco Systems
Mike Steinberger, SiSoft
Mustansir Fanaswalla, Xilinx
Patrick O'Halloran, Tiburon Design Automation
Paul Fernando, NCSU
Pavani Jella, TI
Radek Biernacki, Agilent (EESof)
* Randy Wolff, Micron Technology
Ray Komow, Cadence Design Systems
Richard Mellitz, Intel
Richard Ward, Texas Instruments
Samuel Mertens, Ansoft
Sam Chitwood, Sigrity
Sanjeev Gupta, Agilent
Scott McMorrow, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Shangli Wu, Cadence Design Systems
Sid Singh, Extreme Networks
Stephen Scearce, Cisco Systems
Steve Kaufer, Mentor Graphics
Steve Pytel, Ansoft
Syed Huq, Cisco Systems
Syed Sadeghi, ST Micro
Ted Mido, Synopsys
Terry Jernberg, Cadence Design Systems
* Todd Westerhoff, SiSoft
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov, Mentor Graphics
Vikas Gupta, Xilinx
Vuk Borich, Agilent
* Walter Katz, SiSoft
Wenyi Jin, LSI Logic
Zhen Mu, Mentor Graphics
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- None
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- No one declared a patent.
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Arpad: Update AMI Flows and AMI BIRD text
- Done
- Arpad: Update section 2 text based on updated AMI flow
- In progress
- Arpad: Write parameter passing syntax proposal (BIRD draft)
for *-AMS models in IBIS that is consistent with the
parameter passing syntax of the AMI models
- TBD: Propose a parameter passing syntax for the SPICE
- [External ...] also?
- TBD
- Arpad: Review the documentation (annotation) in the macro libraries.
- Deferred until a demand arises or we have nothing else to do
-------------
New Discussion:
Arpad showed a list of changes to IBIS-ISS draft 0.3 mailed by Michael M:
- Arpad: He is asking for feedback
- Bob: This looks like good work
- There is a lot to look at
- Arpad: There are still no dangling page refs and comments
- Walter: There was an unresolved email comment
- We are not supporting hierarchical parameters?
- Arpad: There was a question about reserved title lines
- It does not apply because this is about SPICE fragments
- Walter: HSPICE has a .title statement
- Arpad: The title line can be problematic
- Walter: It could be useful to have standard comments
- There was also a recommendation to avoid hierarchical parameters
- Subcircuits can receive parameters and that's all
- Arpad: There should be no global parameters
- Walter: Yes, that was it
- Mike L: It would be good to have comments stay with subcircuits
- Walter: At least ones that start with *ISS
- Arpad: The question about a version keyword is interesting
- We might never deprecate keywords and not need one
- Bob: Does HSPICE have one?
- Arpad: No global version
- There is a keyword to say how to round PWL tables, for example
- Walter: Tried to use the document to figure out table W-line model
- Unable to do it by reading this, or the HSPICE manual
- We may need to add some examples
- ICM describes it well
- Arpad: I find no reference to string parameters
- Walter: We may have started with an older version
- Mike: We discussed this Jun 2009 and reached no conclusion
Arpad showed the updated AMI Flow BIRD text PDF:
- Arpad: Anders requested explanation about Init and GetWave algorithm overlap
- I have added something to address this
- Anders: It should be explained you have to be careful about double-counting
- Arpad: It can be explained where we cover the booleans
- Walter: Arpad's approach with modifications should solve the problems
- It should be ready for Arpad to present next week
- Arpad: I can introduce it in a general way now
- General comments added to the beginning of Section 2
- 2.1 is statistical overview
- 2.2 TD overview
- Not very detailed
- Likewise, 2.3 is now 2.3 and 2.4 for separate statistical and TD
- The 2 reference flows are independent
- A new new step 4 has been added
- Ken: Is this change a cleanup or enhancement?
- Arpad: It is a cleanup
- I was requested to find a way to avoid deconvolution and ??
- To satisfy both a duplicate impulse response was needed
- Walter: We are still working this out
- Existing models will work
- Arpad showed flow diagram #8
- This is to insure the optimizer gets the modified Init output
- Ambrish: Have we covered all possible scenarios?
- Arpad: We tried that with the truth table
- Ambrish: The truth table doesn't cover what is inside the model
- Todd: Actually it does
- Ambrish: We only discussed one way optimization can be done
- Walter: There can be problems when GetWave does not have all the EQ
- Ken: This assume EQ is in GetWave
- Walter: It is painful when some EQ is in Init
- We have to leave it because we don't deprecate
- We should not have to document that flow
- It would be best to recommend against it
- Ken: Could we decide unanimously to take things out?
- Bob: That would be feasible
- Ken: It would be best to eliminate complexity
- Walter: I would support that
- Todd: It is the TTT cases that would go
- Ken: It would be better to not have Init and GetWave together
- Todd: Customers want the flexibility
- Arpad: Do we want to cover those TTT truth table equations?
- Ken: We should make those illegal
- Walter: We should remove Use_Init_Output from the BIRD
- It should be ignored
- Come up with a set of 9 flows based on what models have
- Anders: What about TX Init only or Rx GetWave only?
- Walter: Tx Init output is convolved with stimulus to produce a virtual
GetWave
- Anders: Then the complication is when part is in each model
- Walter: Might have peaking filter ahead of DFE
- Need to remember impulse response, use overlap and save method
- Arpad: If we eliminate Use_Init_Output we are saying all of the algorithm has
to be in
either Init or GetWave
- Walter: Does anyone here think we need to keep Use_Init_Output?
- Anders: Don't see why it is so complicated
- Todd: Take TTT off the table and it's more clear what the model does
- Arpad: How do we prevent double-counting?
- Walter: There is a benefit to having dual models
- The initialization is better
- Dramatic performance improvement
- Anders: Tx Init ???
- Todd: It will optimize based on the wrong data
- Walter: SiSoft believes models should have both Init and GetWave
- Anders: What will happen to existing models if we take this out?
- Walter: Only 2 will be affected
- Todd: The flow is undefined anyway
- Bob: It could be a parser warning
- Arpad: This will have to remain unresolved for now
Next meeting: 06 July 2010 12:00pm PT
--------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 06 July 2010
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Adge Hawes, IBM
Ambrish Varma, Cadence Design Systems
Anders Ekholm, Ericsson
* Arpad Muranyi, Mentor Graphics Corp.
Barry Katz, SiSoft
* Bob Ross, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Brad Brim, Sigrity
Brad Griffin, Cadence Design Systems
Chris Herrick, Ansoft
Chris McGrath, Synopsys
Danil Kirsanov, Ansoft
David Banas, Xilinx
Deepak Ramaswany, Ansoft
Donald Telian, consultant
Doug White, Cisco Systems
Eckhard Lenski, Nokia-Siemens Networks
Eckhard Miersch, Sigrity
Essaid Bensoudane, ST Microelectronics
* Fangyi Rao, Agilent
Ganesh Narayanaswamy, ST Micro
Gang Kang, Sigrity
Hemant Shah, Cadence Design Systems
Ian Dodd, consultant
Jerry Chuang, Xilinx
Joe Abler, IBM
* John Angulo, Mentor Graphics
John Shields, Mentor Graphics
* Ken Willis, Sigrity
Kellee Crisafulli, Celsionix
Kumar Keshavan, Sigrity
Lance Wang, Cadence Design Systems
Luis Boluna, Cisco Systems
* Michael Mirmak, Intel Corp.
* Mike LaBonte, Cisco Systems
Mike Steinberger, SiSoft
Mustansir Fanaswalla, Xilinx
Patrick O'Halloran, Tiburon Design Automation
Paul Fernando, NCSU
Pavani Jella, TI
Radek Biernacki, Agilent (EESof)
Randy Wolff, Micron Technology
Ray Komow, Cadence Design Systems
Richard Mellitz, Intel
Richard Ward, Texas Instruments
Samuel Mertens, Ansoft
Sam Chitwood, Sigrity
Sanjeev Gupta, Agilent
Scott McMorrow, Teraspeed Consulting Group
Shangli Wu, Cadence Design Systems
Sid Singh, Extreme Networks
Stephen Scearce, Cisco Systems
Steve Kaufer, Mentor Graphics
Steve Pytel, Ansoft
Syed Huq, Cisco Systems
Syed Sadeghi, ST Micro
Ted Mido, Synopsys
Terry Jernberg, Cadence Design Systems
* Todd Westerhoff, SiSoft
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov, Mentor Graphics
Vikas Gupta, Xilinx
Vuk Borich, Agilent
* Walter Katz, SiSoft
Wenyi Jin, LSI Logic
Zhen Mu, Mentor Graphics
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Opens:
- None
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Call for patent disclosure:
- No one declared a patent.
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Review of ARs:
- Arpad eliminate TTT case from AMI flows.
- Done
- Arpad: Write parameter passing syntax proposal (BIRD draft)
for *-AMS models in IBIS that is consistent with the
parameter passing syntax of the AMI models
- TBD: Propose a parameter passing syntax for the SPICE
- [External ...] also?
- TBD
- Arpad: Review the documentation (annotation) in the macro libraries.
- Deferred until a demand arises or we have nothing else to do
-------------
New Discussion:
IBIS Interconnect SPICE doc:
- Arpad sent some comments to Michael M
- For example, dollar sign comment char at beginning of line not allowed
- Michael M: Need to clarify "string" concerns
- Arpad: We probably want to support things like file name param values
- Michael M: Most significant changes have already been made
Arpad showed the latest AMI Flow #9 slides:
- Slide 8 significantly reduced
- Eliminating TTT case reduced down to 4 equations
- Slide 1: Only slide for statistical simulation
- Slide 2: Only boolean is GetWave_Exists
- Slide 3-5: Avoids deconvolution
- All requests incorporated
- Ken: This is much simpler
- Slide 3 is just for Tx Init+GetWave + Rx Init-only case?
- Arpad: The optimizer needs to know what Tx Init is doing
- Ken: Is Tx GetWave needed at all?
- Walter: Tap coefficients don't change
- Tx Init output is LTI and therefore pattern-independent
- Tx models have up to 16 tap FIR filters
- Init representation relatively good
- But they do have pattern dependencies (DCD)
- Tx GetWave takes care of those
- Fangyi: Doesn't the simulator add jitter?
- Walter: A simulator can't handle data path dependent jitter
- It depends of the bit pattern
- Fangyi: Are these chip to chip differences?
- Walter: It is part of the buffer
- Todd: Tx GetWave is problematic with analog input
- Can only do LTI until we have digital input
- Ken: This supports advanced jitter capabilities
- Fangyi: So this is for jitter and also for FIR filter
- Michael M: Is the Tx EQ issue a limit of IBIS AMI or the industry
- Walter: Industry
- Ken: There will be an advanced jitter BIRD anyway
- We could take out Rx optimization now
- Arpad showed slide 5
- Walter: This is a classic Rx buffer with self-adapting DFE
- A long enough sim will converge the Rx model (100k to 1million bits)
- It would be nice to initialize tap coeffs so that less bits are needed
- Only way is by passing best guess to Rx Init
- Then Rx GetWave will converge quickly
- Need an accurate Rx Init_Returns_Filter
- Todd: We were trying to avoid deconvolution at Arpad's suggestion
- If we leave that behind the flow diagrams become very simple
- It is instructive to see it that way
- Arpad: The dual matrix was also needed for optimization
- Without deconvolution the flow for TD and statistical could be the same
- Fangyi: In statistical the bit pattern goes to Rx GetWave
- In TD the bit pattern goes to Tx GetWave
- Arpad: In statistical we don't convolve
- Fangyi: Effectively it is
- Walter: You can make a good Hre approximation for DFE
- A DFE is LTI under some circumstances
- Todd: It is a linear approximation
- Walter: No way to get just the Rx filter in the current system
- Deconvolution can do that if we accept it
- We don't have to add another parameter
- It is debatable whether this is a legal enhancement
- We can have a scheme where existing models and flows will work
- Kumar and I are not concerned about deconvolution
- Fangyi: The LTI model will not operate in cascade fashion
- Todd: That is a contradiction
- Fangyi: The impulse responses are not necessarily connected to the filter
- Todd: There has to be a linear relationship between two impulse responses
- Walter: If it is LTI you can go back and forth between domains
- Todd: We started trying to avoid deconvolution
- We have not reduced this to the essentials
- What set of flows are we trying to describe?
- I would like to present next week
- Ken: Maybe the optimizer part should be moved to the jitter BIRD
- Todd: That can be addressed
- Dropping Use_Init_Output made it more elegant
- Walter: There is no longer a jitter BIRD
- Arpad: If we take out out some cases will not work
- Walter: We would only have to accept that deprecation is necessary
- Arpad: We are going in circles
- We need to end this somehow
Todd will present next week
Next meeting: 13 July 2010 12:00pm PT
--------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
Other related posts:
