[wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
- From: "Jerry Evans" <jerry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 18:03:10 -0000
Hello Frank.
Thank you for your interest and encouraging comments. Quite simply we want our
device to be supported in-box for both Windows and OSX.
It future proofs investments in hardware in a way that cannot be guaranteed by
even surprisingly large vendors. There is much hardware out there which lacks
driver support for Windows 7, let alone x64 flavours of (say) XP. There are
only 2 outcomes, both bad; premature obsolescence, or run legacy versions of
the entire stack, from driver to OS to DAW.
I’d like to say that we could mitigate this somewhat by offering an open source
driver. But there are complexities going forward along with practical issues
like driver signing and the like. More fundamentally I have little sympathy
with the idea of 3rd party kernel code for consumer/prosumer use*.
Nutshell: Microsoft owns the stack. At the very least it should provide support
for the mainstream USB classes. You go and the vendors will follow. USB Audio
2.0 support remains a long standing promise after all:
“USB Audio 2.0 Enhancements
The USB Implementers’ Forum Audio Device Working Group is defining improvements
to the USB Audio specifications that are needed to take full advantage of
updates and improvements made in the USB 2.0 specification, as well as
resolving ambiguities and adding features to the USB Audio specifications.
Microsoft is actively involved in the update process and is planning to
implement the updates in Usbaudio.sys when the updates are ratified by the USB
Implementers’ Forum.
© 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Draft Version 0.3 - April
1, 2003“
Thanks again.
Jerry.
* If there had been user mode isoch support available in Windows 7 onwards then
I could be persuaded otherwise.
From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Frank Yerrace
Sent: 13 February 2014 16:49
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
>Now. What about USB Audio 2 class support?
I had asked this list several years ago about level of interest in USB Audio 2
and reasons for the interest. I received some private responses as well as
responses to this public list. Even though in-box support ultimately was not
included in Windows 8, those responses were greatly appreciated and very
helpful.
As you can imagine, we are constantly evaluating where to invest for future
versions of Windows. I assume the interest in in-box USB Audio 2 support is
still quite high. If interest has further increased or perhaps decreased for
any reason, please don’t hesitate to speak out (on this list or directly to me
or Matthew).
Regards,
Frank Yerrace
Microsoft
Sent from Windows Mail
From: Jerry Evans <mailto:jerry@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:03 AM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hello Matthew
Update: Using an absolutely minimal exclusive WASAPI capture app on W7x64 I am
getting 48 channels of 48K/16bit audio. Which is great. The recorded audio is a
bit perfect pattern of the 16bit samples originating in the device firmware.
For anyone else who may visit here:
The firmware channel mask is set to 0, as is the mask in the
WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE used to query the supported formats.
The WASAPI app is querying the property store with
PKEY_AudioEngine_DeviceFormat to check for the ‘native’ format. This entry
appears to not be created until (at least) the device is queried using the
Sound
applet >> Advanced Properties tab.
Many thanks for the help.
Now. What about USB Audio 2 class support?
Cheers!
From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew van Eerde
Sent: 07 February 2014 21:48
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
I would expect an app to always be able to use 0, whether the hardware is 0 or
not.
I would expect an app to always be able to use the hardware value, whether it
was 0 or not.
I would not expect an app to ever be able to use a non-zero value which does
not match the hardware.
If the number of channels is more than… oh, say, 8… then I would expect the
value to always be 0.
From: wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jerry Evans
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2014 1:38 PM
To: wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
Matthew, indeed. Thanks.
I will try this next roll. Is your expectation that masks must match?
The 1.0 spec we get “If none of the bits in wChannelConfigare set, then all
channels have non-predefined spatial positions.” (3.7.2.3). We can source more
than 16 bits worth of channels so I cannot see this field can used used in any
meaningful way (?)
From: <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew van Eerde
Sent: 07 February 2014 21:07
To: <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
It’s probably possible to set a breakpoint in IAudioClient::IsFormatSupported,
but let’s not go there yet.
If you set the channel mask to 0x60f in firmware, I would expect both 0x0 and
0x60f to work in the WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE. Let me know if that’s not the case.
On your device, what do you get for the following?
IAudioClient::GetMixFormat()
IAudioClient::IsFormatSupported(x, y)
x in { AUDCLNT_SHAREMODE_EXCLUSIVE, AUDCLNT_SHAREMODE_SHARED }
y in { 2-channel, 6-channel w/ channel mask = 0, 6-channel w/ channel mask =
0x3f, 6-channel w/ channel mask = 0x60f }
From: <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jerry Evans
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2014 12:02 PM
To: <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
Hi Matthew
The wchannelMask is clearly having more impact than I expected.
If I set a channel mask of 0x00 in device firmware and ensure channel mask in
WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE is also zero , I can record data correctly using WASAPI
exclusive mode via the Portaudio libraries. I am getting data as expected,
which is good.
Question arising are:
If one calls IAudioClient::IsFormatSupported() to check the device’s native
format using a WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE struct where the channel mask does *not*
match that of the device, will this return a ‘format not supported’ error?
An well-known audio recording app is failing with the device, whilst others
work as expected with WASAPI mode. Is there any way I can determine if (and
what) channel mask it uses when checking in with the audi engine? Is there any
ETW style log data? Or a KS spy?
Thanks.
From: <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew van Eerde
Sent: 06 February 2014 19:35
To: <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
Nitpick: you probably want 0x60f instead of 0x3f or 0; that is, you want side
speakers rather than rear speakers or a “direct out” channel mask.
To try instantiating a pin in KS Studio, instantiate the filter first, then
right-click the streaming pin factory and choose “Instantiate.” You will then
be able to enter all the parameters to KsCreatePin.
cid:image001.png@01CF2853.D030F620
The speaker configuration wizard in the Sound control panel doesn’t affect KS
Studio; it just tells the Windows audio engine what to pass to KsCreatePin.
From: <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jerry Evans
Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:22 AM
To: <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
Matthew, a little more exploration and things get more puzzling. For reference
I’m using the cross paltform Portaudio library with exclusive WASAPI mode as we
also have to test this stuff on a Mac.
1. Configure as 2 channel device, all is good. Device is enumerated
correctly, stream precisely the sample pattern we have loaded into firmware.
Channel mask is 0
2. Configure as 6 channel device, WASAPI baulks claiming sample format
not supported etc (can send you more detail if interested)
3. Configure as 6 channel device with channel mask set to 0x3F, c.
What Is even stranger is that if I run up Audacity (cross-platform audio
editor) the device does not appear if WASAPI mode is selected. It *does* appear
if DirectSound is specified as the audio engine. And to put things right out
there into the twilight zone, for DirectSound reverse the outcomes for
configurations 2 and 3 – i.e. DirectSound mode streams zeroes if, and only if,
the channel mask is set to zero.
Thoughts?
Many thanks.
KS Studio spew follows for 6 channel mode, apparently identical if channelmask
is set to 0x00 or to 0x3F.
( I’m unsure if the failed queries are an issue. Precisely the same is reported
when I instantiate a filter for an M-Audio PCI soundcard and others):
------------------------------
Instantiating Filter: "Chordia 6CH"
------------------------------
Profiling filter "\\?\usb#vid_face
<file:///\\%3f\usb%23vid_face&pid_0646&mi_00%238&3864bd55&0&0000%23%7b6994ad04-93ef-11d0-a3cc-00a0c9223196%7d\global>
&pid_0646&mi_00#8&3864bd55&0&0000#{6994ad04-93ef-11d0-a3cc-00a0c9223196}\global"
Getting property KSPROPERTY_TYPE_SETSUPPORT:
Filter Property set supported:
{c3fa16d7-274e-4f2b-a63b-d5e10955fa27}
KSPROPSETID_Pin
KSPROPSETID_Audio
KSPROPSETID_Topology
KSPROPSETID_General
{a60d8368-5324-4893-b020-c431a50bcbe3}
Getting event KSEVENT_TYPE_SETSUPPORT:
Filter Event set supported:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CTYPES
Getting property KSPROPSETID_Topology.KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_CATEGORIES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_CATEGORIES
Got KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_CATEGORIES:
Getting property KSPROPSETID_Topology.KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_NODES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_NODES
Got KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_NODES:
Getting property KSPROPSETID_Topology.KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_CONNECTIONS
Getting property KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_CONNECTIONS
Got KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_CONNECTIONS:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_NAME
Got KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_NAME:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_NAME
Got KSPROPERTY_TOPOLOGY_NAME:
SyncGetSupportedPropertySets: size query failed
Warning: QueryPropSetSupport failed for node 0. Defaulting to "supported
propertyset" array from filter
SyncGetSupportedEventSets: size query failed
Warning: QueryEventSetSupport failed for node 0. Defaulting to "supported
eventset" array from filter
SyncGetSupportedPropertySets: size query failed
Warning: QueryPropSetSupport failed for node 1. Defaulting to "supported
propertyset" array from filter
SyncGetSupportedEventSets: size query failed
Warning: QueryEventSetSupport failed for node 1. Defaulting to "supported
eventset" array from filter
PIN [0] (pin 1 of 2)
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_INTERFACES
Got KSPROPERTY_PIN_INTERFACES:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_MEDIUMS
Got KSPROPERTY_PIN_MEDIUMS:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_DATARANGES
Got KSPROPERTY_PIN_DATARANGES:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CONSTRAINEDDATARANGES
Failed to get property KSPROPSETID_Pin.KSPROPERTY_PIN_CONSTRAINEDDATARANGES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_DATAFLOW
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_COMMUNICATION
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_GLOBALCINSTANCES
Failed to get property KSPROPSETID_Pin.KSPROPERTY_PIN_GLOBALCINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_NECESSARYINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_PHYSICALCONNECTION
Failed to get property KSPROPSETID_Pin.KSPROPERTY_PIN_PHYSICALCONNECTION
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CATEGORY
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_NAME
Got KSPROPERTY_PIN_NAME:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_JACK_DESCRIPTION
Failed to get property KSPROPSETID_Jack.KSPROPERTY_JACK_DESCRIPTION
PIN [1] (pin 2 of 2)
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_INTERFACES
Got KSPROPERTY_PIN_INTERFACES:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_MEDIUMS
Got KSPROPERTY_PIN_MEDIUMS:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_DATARANGES
Got KSPROPERTY_PIN_DATARANGES:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CONSTRAINEDDATARANGES
Failed to get property KSPROPSETID_Pin.KSPROPERTY_PIN_CONSTRAINEDDATARANGES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_DATAFLOW
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_COMMUNICATION
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_GLOBALCINSTANCES
Failed to get property KSPROPSETID_Pin.KSPROPERTY_PIN_GLOBALCINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_NECESSARYINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_PHYSICALCONNECTION
Failed to get property KSPROPSETID_Pin.KSPROPERTY_PIN_PHYSICALCONNECTION
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CATEGORY
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_NAME
Got KSPROPERTY_PIN_NAME:
Getting property KSPROPERTY_JACK_DESCRIPTION
Failed to get property KSPROPSETID_Jack.KSPROPERTY_JACK_DESCRIPTION
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_NECESSARYINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_CINSTANCES
Getting property KSPROPERTY_PIN_NECESSARYINSTANCES
Node (0) KSNODETYPE_ADC (ADC)
Supported PropertySets:
KSStudio does not recognize PropertySet GUID
{c3fa16d7-274e-4f2b-a63b-d5e10955fa27} supported on Node 0
This is not a driver bug.
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_Pin on node 0
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_Audio on node 0
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_Topology on node 0
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_General on node 0
KSStudio does not recognize PropertySet GUID
{a60d8368-5324-4893-b020-c431a50bcbe3} supported on Node 0
This is not a driver bug.
Supported EventSets:
Node (1) KSNODETYPE_SRC (Sample Rate Converter)
Supported PropertySets:
KSStudio does not recognize PropertySet GUID
{c3fa16d7-274e-4f2b-a63b-d5e10955fa27} supported on Node 1
This is not a driver bug.
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_Pin on node 1
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_Audio on node 1
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_Topology on node 1
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_General on node 1
KSStudio does not recognize PropertySet GUID
{a60d8368-5324-4893-b020-c431a50bcbe3} supported on Node 1
This is not a driver bug.
Supported EventSets:
Misc. Supported PropertySets
KSStudio does not recognize PropertySet GUID
{c3fa16d7-274e-4f2b-a63b-d5e10955fa27} supported by the filter
This is not a driver bug.
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_Audio
Filter reports the following support for Property
KSPROPERTY_AUDIO_MIC_ARRAY_GEOMETRY: 0x00000001 { KSPROPERTY_TYPE_GET}
Getting property KSPROPERTY_AUDIO_MIC_ARRAY_GEOMETRY
KSPROPERTY_AUDIO_MIC_ARRAY_GEOMETRY get failed
Filter reports support for PropertySet KSPROPSETID_General
Filter reports the following support for Property
KSPROPERTY_GENERAL_COMPONENTID: 0x00000001 { KSPROPERTY_TYPE_GET}
Getting property KSPROPERTY_GENERAL_COMPONENTID
KSStudio does not recognize PropertySet GUID
{a60d8368-5324-4893-b020-c431a50bcbe3} supported by the filter
This is not a driver bug.
From: <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew van Eerde
Sent: 05 February 2014 19:11
To: <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
Well, let’s see…
You can use KS Studio to validate directly that instantiating a pin with a
(say) 40-channel WAVEFORMATEX works.
If your data ranges advertise only a (say) 40-channel format, then I would
expect shared-mode capture not to work at all, since Windows has no idea how to
downmix 40 channels without a channel mask to, e.g., mono. Whether
exclusive-mode capture should work in this situation is less clear.
If you advertise both a (say) 2-channel format and a 40-channel format, then I
would expect shared-mode capture to work (in 2-channel mode) and I would also
expect exclusive-mode capture to work in both 2-channel mode and 40-channel
mode (with a zero channel mask.) If that is not the case I would open a support
ticket on <http://support.microsoft.com/> http://support.microsoft.com/ since
there’s likely a bug in the capture stack.
It would be helpful to know what function was failing (e.g.,
IAudioClient::IsFormatSupported(AUDCLNT_SHAREMODE_EXCLUSIVE, …)) as well as the
specific HRESULT that was being returned.
From: <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jerry Evans
Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 10:55 AM
To: <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
Yes. It is odd. The descriptors all appear valid.
Can I infer there are no explicit limitations in the stack? This is possibly
not a show stopper as 32+ channels is a large number in most practical
contexts. However, and annoyingly, the audio system for another well-known
proprietary OS seems happy to allow us to stream 80 channels …
Thanks and any other suggestions welcomed.
From: <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Matthew van Eerde
Sent: 05 February 2014 18:36
To: <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] Re: USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
The “channel mask” section of a WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE is a 32-bit number.
Perhaps you’re tripping some wave format validation that assumes a valid
WAVEFORMATEX only ever has fewer than 32 channels. (This sounds like a bug to
me, since a channel mask of zero is always valid.)
From: <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:wdmaudiodev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jerry Evans
Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 10:27 AM
To: <mailto:wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wdmaudiodev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [wdmaudiodev] USB Audio/WASAPI channel limits?
Greetings.
I’m developing a USB2 input only audio device that exposes a large (N >= 24)
number of channels.
The device is recognized and streams correctly on W7x64 at up to 32 channels,
48K sample rate and both 16 and 24 bit sample sizes. Data is recorded
accurately using various commercial WASAPI hosts (Sonar/Tracktion)
Windows, however, appears to baulk at any larger channel count. The various USB
tracers (both stack and wire) show Windows sending a QUERY_CAPABILITIES every
second or so when device is configured with 32 channels. Anything above that
and zero action.
Is there some hard limit or have I missed something?
Cheers.
Jerry
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