Liz, Julio, Robert and others,
When the email comes from CT, usually it just shows "on behalf of ..." . But
when you hit "reply" and then look at the beginning of the email you're
replying to, you will find the person's email address on the "From:" line. It's
been hard for many people to find this personal email address. Course, to
remember to delete the general CT address and input a personal address, well,
this is something many of us have forgotten over the years with various degrees
of abject mortification ensuing!!
Also, I have found that rather than Chris being "picky about people saying the
'right' thing", he just requests that people honor the group's guidelines,
which is reasonable after all.
At any rate, not to worry. Your lack of clarity about Julio's email was
probably shared by others. I think it a service to all to clarify any post we
all receive and I have a lot of respect for those in the group who use English
as a 2nd or 3rd language. It is challenging and they mostly do so with a good
deal of accuracy and grace. I know that I would be reluctant to post to a group
in a language other than English, though I do know several, so I respect their
effort in this regard and appreciate their participation.
all the best, sheila
Sheila Saunders, RN, LMFT
www.systemicfamilysolutions.com
PO Box 1011 Weaverville, North Carolina 28787
828-273-5015
"When we have passed a certain age, the soul of the child we were and the souls
of the dead from whom we have sprung come to lavish on us their riches and
their spells." -Marcel Proust (In Search of Lost Time)
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 00:00:57 -0400
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Bowing Note--Gesture Doesn't Equal or Create
Feeling
Hi Robert, I appreciate your caring response to my communication to Julio. I
thought and thought about how to word it and looked for his email to no
avail. I am new to this group, but know how picky Chris is about people
saying the "right" thing. I picked up some embarrassment about his English
from Juli and wanted to say something about what he'd said, but then I
didn't want to embarrass him by actually NOT understanding him and saying
something that didn't fit. But, I also didn't want to look "STUPID" to the
rest of you--thereby embarrassing myself. I considered the option of saying
nothing--which I chose with Michael--possibly because I disagreed with him
and I also know him fairly well. As I turned out I was so relieved that I'd
kept quiet as so many of you agreed with Michael and were prompted to share
very deeply from personal experience, so WHEW! I lucked out by keeping my
mouth shut then! So back to Julio, I wanted to share with him so I reached
out knowing that I was exposing both myself and him. So, am I embarrassed
that you picked up on that and said something? Probably not, but I suppose
that it's possible. Maybe in truth I have mixed feelings--happy that you
took time to share with me personally, and a little embarrassed that you
chastised me some--at least I think you did.
Thanks for getting in touch--I really appreciated that. Best Liz
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Robert Grant
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:50 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Bowing Note--Gesture Doesn't Equal or
Create Feeling
Dear Liz,
I would like to share here my sense about embarrassment. In my experience
when a desire not to cause hurt or embarrassment is clearly defined and
stated, it is often already too late. In me at least deeper feelings and
impulses always seem to gain the upper hand.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Liz Jelinek <lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
**youd
Julio, Id love to email you directly in response to your post. I think I
understand what you mean but dont wish to embarrass either of us. If
be willing please send me your email address, or if youd prefer, please
email me directly. Fondly, Liz
lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Julio Príncipe
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 5:17 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Bowing Note--Gesture Doesn't Equal or
Create Feeling
Thanks Michael, I agree with you
Your post brings to me a personal insight (and a question): how many times
"bowing" becomes in a "strategical-chess-movement" of my role as
facilitator?
(I don´t know if it's clear, English it's not my first language; sorry for
that).
best regards,
Julio
2011/8/20 Michael Reddy <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:michael%40reddyworks.com> >
Hello Everyone,
Thanks for all the enrichment of our perspective on bowing. It's
really valuable.
I guess I feel moved to just put in a small footnote here. Let's
please not forget that an external word, or gesture is never
equivalent to any particular thought or set of feelings. Words and
gestures remain ambiguous. To say that a bow CAN mean these and those
things is correct, and to say that, for ourselves and our clients, we
WANT it to mean certain things is really valuable. It is even true
that a full-body gesture like the bow TENDS to move someone towards
certain states of feeling that are sort of intrinsic to the posture.
But still the external expression is not equivalent to what is going
on inside.
For example, I have seen forced bows that were so reluctant and rigid
that, obviously, something else was going on. I'm not talking here
about my own experience of constellations, so much as experiences
earlier in martial arts (Kodokan Judo). I remember one match during
my beginner white belt days in which my opponent's required bow at the
beginning was so obviously filled with animosity and even rage, that
my bow was filled with fear. Respect was never able to emerge. A more
seasoned competitor would have bowed very differently--knowing that
the man's rage would make it very easy to throw him. That more
seasoned bow might contain delight in certain victory (irony in the
gesture), at a certain stage. or at a later stage, genuine compassion
and the "namaste" feeling. "I'll throw you. May you learn and grow
from it."
This is part of a general tendency we have, supported by pervasive
underlying metaphors in many languages, to act and speak as if the
word or gesture were a package that delivered another person's
internal thought or feeling. It's not. Words have no "insides." We
don't put thoughts or feelings "into" words. Still our languages
won't let us talk easily any other way. You may notice I said above
that my bow "was filled with fear." So there it is in plain sight. I
have to use the expressions, even though I'm aware of the problem. If
this is of interest, see the academic work I did on this several
decades ago (Wikepedia, "Conduit Metaphor").
Thanks to all for this list.
Michael
Michael Reddy, PhD, CPC, ELI-MP
michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:michael%40reddyworks.com>
www.reddyworks.com
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On Aug 19, 2011, at 3:39 PM, Stephan Knierim wrote:
Hi everyone,
As I have also learned, bowing/honoring involves you showing your most
vulnerable spot in your body to the other - your neck.
So, as you bow, you become humble and vulnerable and all judgement and
feelings of arrogance start to heal.
Best regards,
Stephan Knierim
stephankrx@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:stephankrx%40gmail.com>
CENTRO DE CONSTELACIONES FAMILIARES SOWELU
Family Constellator
Sistemic Organizational Configurator
México D.F.
MEXICO
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