Yes Stuart I think that's a good idea. I'll email it to you directly
Best
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Geltner [mailto:stuart108@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: 21 January 2005 18:35
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] MS cure
Hi Rouqqia-
Out of respect for the Hellinger focus of this yahoogroup, it
would be best if we emailed each other directly. Please send me your
email if you'd like to do that.
Best,
Stuart
On Jan 21, 2005, at 3:05 AM, Rouqqia Hussain wrote:
Yes, I'd like to know what else can work, please let me
know
Best
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Geltner [mailto:stuart108@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: 20 January 2005 21:10
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Hi Rouqqia-
Thanks for your detailed explanation. It's rich with
useful and potent information.
I have recently encountered a woman who was cured of MS
through a different form of work.
If you're interested I can track down the root cause of
the disease according to that work.
Best wishes for your personal work.
Stuart
On Jan 20, 2005, at 10:29 AM, Rouqqia Hussain wrote:
Hi Stuart
My comment came from a couples constellation workshop
that Bert Hellinger held in Poland in Nov 04. It went as follows:
A couple walks up to Bert for advice.
Even before they get up from their seats, Bert has
observed the energy between them and sees who has an unresolved issue,
who has the most power in the relationship, who is committed to the
relationship, who is bonded to an earlier partner, etc
Then he watches how they walk together towards him , who
takes the seat next to him, etc. By doing all this and more, he finds
out so much that he only needs to ask the barest questions.
In this particular case, the woman, looking busy,
grounded, healthy and 'sweet-faced' sat down next to Bert as if there
was no question of her place centre-stage. Her husband trailed after
her. He looked haggard and thin, wearing worn out clothes and a
noticeably downbeat air. However all this was obvious to me only in
retrospect.
The wife began by crying prettily and saying that she
was suffering from MS whilst in the process of divorce after suffering
directly due to her alcoholic husband during 20 years of marriage. They
had 2 sons.
Bert seemed engaged till he heard her blame her
alcoholic husband, then the tone changed as he said bluntly that his
sympathies were very definately with the husband.
I've noticed that Bert is extremely careful with his
'soul energy' and allows nothing to contaminate it. He teaches all of us
to ask ourselves in every encounter, 'Will I be stronger or weaker if I
continue?' and here I could feel him antennae quivering at being next to
something wrong happening. He has enormous compassion on a meta level,
it's not about taking sides.
Then he set up a constellation with the wife and her
father. She was told to face him, clench her fists and shout 'I WANT TO
KILL YOU' She did this till she said it with satisfactory conviction and
volume.
Bert explained that he had by now seen so many cases of
hidden aggression and how they manifest themselves that he could make
the statement that MS sufferers are defusing their urge to kill by
becoming ill with diseases like MS. ( he mentions a few others but that
would make this illustration even longer) He had also noticed that
people who are murderers in their soul can marry someone who wants to
die. Then he carried on to do a separate constellation with the husband.
Bert also explained that in his experience alcoholics
come from mothers who have despised them and paternal grandmothers also.
ie his father was also despised by his mother, leading to at least 2
generations of despised men, and it had been passed down to their 2
sons.
Bert carried on to say that the solution for an
alcoholic man was to get respect from his wife. He gave the example of
Russian men with their legendary love of vodka and alcoholism (and 'long
suffering' wives). He said the wife of an alcoholic must find it in
herself to treat her husband with respect and dignity. However the
wife's whole dynamic is based on not respecting men, hence she chose the
alcoholic in the first place. She wants to kill and he wants to die in
place of his father. The husbands constellation also showed that the
husband's father wanted him to die.
Bert made the statement that the husband never had a
chance. It was very touching and we could all see it was true. He was
one of the walking dead. Bert held him with the greatest compassion in
his eyes.
There were other aspects to the constellation, finer
points that I fear are taking too long to cover here.
This was my 4th workshop with Bert and in every one he
has pointed out women who carry murderous rage. He said the worst is not
the MS sufferer but the one who thinks she is a victim. He avoids these
people and advises therapist to do the same as they are dangerous.
Until that workshop in Nov 04, I thought of myself as a
victim but now I take every opportunity to catch myself out and take
full responsibility for my actions. Thinking of oneself as a victim
forms murderous rage. I'm not really sure what else I can do, or if this
is the condition I will live in for the rest of my life. I wanted to
know about myself but I never expected to discover this.
Please be aware that these are my personal observations.
Others at the Poland workshops may have different interpretations of
what happened or what Bert said. I'm not a therapist.
Regards
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Geltner [mailto:stuart108@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: 12 January 2005 22:12
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Rouqqia-
could you please explain your comment," The alcoholic
was married to a sweet faced multiple sclerosis sufferer, ie a
murderer." I believe you are describing the lady with MS a murderer, but
I'm not clear if that's what you are saying.
Thanks,
Stuart
On Jan 11, 2005, at 11:22 AM, Jennifer Altman wrote:
Dear Dianne,
There is a very helpful article about addictions and
constellations by Colette Green in the current issue (No 5) of the
Systemic Solutions Bulletin. You can order this from Barbara Morgan
(barbara@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) or you could contact Colette
(colettegreen@xxxxxxxxxx). She discusses the personal and systemic
issues that leads to addiction and illustrates the complexity with a
case study of a constellation.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this illuminating
discussion!
Warmly
Jen Altman
At 16:14 11/01/2005 +0000, you wrote:
Dear Rouqqia,
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
I would like to complete the words of Bert about
alcoholics.
In my experience there is a layer in every woman of
despise against men - out of loyalty in the long row of all the women.
(And vice versa, the men share common feelings - I
think fear it the most common and hidden.)
I had a constellation where the grandfather drunk
himself to death but the grandmother, the third wife after the first two
had died, was full of love towards him. I found it very important for
the grandchild client who had difficulties with man to bring to light
also the layer of anger and contempt in the grandmother. I proposed her
the sentences "I love you very much. And when you home drunken at night
and stink out of the mouth, deep down there are hatred and contempt."
The representative felt the sentences true.
If a woman marries an alcoholic she must have a certain
loyalty to a woman in her back. And she does not only share the
attraction towards an alcoholic or drug addict but also the anger and
the contempt. This makes it as difficult for a woman to respect such a
man as it is difficult for a man to drop alcohol. They are in the same
boat.
Hello All
I recently went to a Bert Hellinger workshop and he was
working with an alcoholic. Bert said that alcoholics generally marry
women who despise them. They desperately need those women to respect
them to get better, but invariably the women won't do this because they
despise men in general.
The alcoholic was married to a sweet faced multiple
sclerosis sufferer, ie a murderer.
Regards
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: 10 January 2005 17:59
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Diane,
I want to give just some ideas of mine. I do not work
often with the subject of alcohol. But when it comes I find it useful in
the constellation to give a sentence what the alcohol does good to
someone.
F. e:"Drinking helps me not to feel my pain/my anger/my
guilt" (and so on).
Or if somebody becomes violent with alcohol: "Drinking
helps me to come out with my anger." Or: "I drunk myself to death." So I
try to find the right context and by naming it, it becomes a little
relief and more understandable.
Bertold
Thank you Sheila. I agree. What prompted the question is
I had talked to someone a year ago about getting involved in a recovery
program, which never happened. I saw an opportunity again this week and
was wondering whether to pursue it.
I remember one constellation where generations back a
boy was molested by his uncle. His father found out and killed the uncle
and the boy was not allowed to talk about it. He became an alcoholic,
and so did his son and grandson, who was the client's father, and the
client married an alcoholic.
I guess what I meant by success was working within a
program and being accepted by the counselors and directors of the
program.
Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message -----
From: sheila saunders
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
I have not worked specifically with someone regarding
alcoholism. However, this question "Has anyone had experience or success
with..." is to my mind, 2 completely separate questions. Many
facilitators have worked with alcolholic clients. Bert has worked with
so many in fact, that he was able to provide the general observation
that "alcoholics miss their father". I see alcoholism as just another
symptom like "I can't keep a job" or "I've always felt depressed", and
would work on it within the constellation of the family. As far as
"success" goes, I feel my attachment to "helping" or "changing" someone
when I find myself thinking in those terms. I have no idea what
"success" means to anyone, and I approach a constellation only with a
spirit of discovery. How the discovered information may be used in the
workings of another's life, is beyond what I actively explore. Sometimes
a former client lets me know, and I do invite them to do so after a time
passes, and if they feel so inclined. I consider myself succcessful in
this work when I remain attentive to "what is", to what is being
revealed by the field. I feel successful when I have had the courage to
say what I see. I feel successful when a group gathers together in
which I can show the strength and integrity of this work.
I found one reference to alcoholism in Bert's book
Supporting Love, :
Participant: My husband is an alcoholic. I can't stay
with someone who threatens me and is dependent on alcohol.
Hellinger: Yes, I think you're right. When one partner
has a problem, such as alcoholism, he or she can't demand that the
partner stay. He or she has to carry the consequences. If you confront
him with the problem and say, "I'm leaving the alcohol problem with you
and I'm going," perhaps he can change. He will carry the responsibility
alone and get strength from that. It won't help him for you to stay
with him.
Just a few thoughts, Diane.
All the best in the New Year!! sheila
Sheila Saunders, RN, MFT
Systemic Family Solutions
sheila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.systemicfamilysolutions.com
Great Smokies Medical Center of Asheville
1312 Patton Ave. Asheville, NC. 28806
828-273-5015
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