Dear An,
I am totally in agreement with you and consider the solution and
dissolution of the ancient dicotomy of inclusion - exclusion as one
of the important tasks in our work.
It is so easy for me to fall into this trap of exclusion, because
then I do not have to change. It is much more difficult to work on
inclusion as it means for me that I have to change, that there is a
lesson for me to be learned (sometimes these "teachers" are really
"tyrants"), and yet, through this work, I have come to see it also as
a great opportunity and I feel it has been, for the entire group.
Sheila gave me an article that Bert distributed in Pichl:
"The greatest power is with the bad things; in the cruel, the
painful things, God reveals himself most clearly.
We get weakest when we exclude the bad. How does someone become a
bad person? Who makes a human being bad?
Only good people make other people bad, there are no bad people by
themselves. They become bad by being
excluded by somebody good. And the good people need the bad people
in order to feel good..."
I am just so very, very sorry that it was so personal and aimed at
real persons, which made it all so painful for them and for all of us
as well. It was not just some general ranting, or about Bert, who
always takes these events as a part of life.
And if Tom has grown by all of this and receiving our mails, it is up
to him to grow - or not: every person has his own time, his own
rhythm ..., perhaps he will do it, perhaps not, but he made us all
react, feel, think and process lots of personal things in ourselves,
which makes me feel, paradoxically, grateful also.
Best regards,
Ingala
México
El 20/01/2008, a las 5:33, An Rubens escribió:
Dear Ingala,
Thanks for bringing in the third option.
Exclusion is an act of the mind (ratio).
Inclusion is an act of the heart (love).
Every human being in this world is a part of our reality.
Who am I to exclude? (Realizing that also this is not as easy in
practice,
than in saying or writing)
Personally, when I'me shocked by words or behavior of someone, I -
fore sure
- know that the borders of my "model of the world" are being
challenged.
(And it is necessary to rock the borders of my "model of the world"
so now
and then, how difficult this sometimes also is.)
At that very moment I know that personal growth again is entered in
my live.
I have two options from this moment on:
1) I condemn the act, the words, the behaviour of the other. I
decide to
keep it away from my reality. So I withdrawn myself or I exclude
the other.
(exclusion)
2) Or I can welcome this "new" thing in my live. I try to not condemn
immediately, but wait for a while and see what new thoughts, ideas,
reflections, actions are initiated within myself and within the other.
(inclusion.)
This very interesting process of the last few days in this yahoo
talking
group is a good example of shaking "my model of the world".
I enjoyed watching the reflection of people coming by - I learned
so much of
you and of myself...precious things of precious people...Thanks for
sharing
this.
For sure this discussion could be worthwhile for the excluded
person himself
too.
Kind regards,
An Rubens
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Namens Ingala Robl Greis
Verzonden: zaterdag 19 januari 2008 16:05
Aan: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Onderwerp: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Tom Melleltt
Greetings to all
I have several suggestions for this type of conduct by people like
Tom:
- We could form a Committee of Honour and Ethics, so that Chris
would not have to take this type of decision
- Once the page is up, we could use the poll-program so that
everybody could vote on this: leading to temporary exclusion
or total exclusion from the group, or whatever, which keeps the
lever off Chris also
- We could just let it be because everybody has a right to voice his/
her opinion, even those opinions we do not like and offend us, and
there are many people out in the world like this. Our motto is
inclusion. As several of you have mentioned: systemically, what Tom
wrote, tells more about Tom than about the people he wrote about,
Best greetings,
Ingala
El 18/01/2008, a las 14:22, Chris Walsh escribió:
Hi allalso
This was a difficult decision and not based on this email alone. I
have
given Tom a series of private warnings before so my move would not
have been
a surprise to him. I in fact had used the option to stop him
sending emails
but it failed on this occasion. So the only options were to put up
with this
or exclude him for a while. Please note the words for a while .
He does
have the possibility of returning if he apologises. If he does not
want to
do that then he is excluding himself.
I think Sheila made a very good point that Tom deserves the
feedback from
the group post exclusion. I will forward that to him. It is easy to
forward
you own emails to him as I have done here by copying him in.
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
webpage: www.cwalsh.com.au
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Anita Roy
Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 5:54 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Tom Melleltt
There are many ways to do set boundaries, and I appreciate that
Chris was in
a difficult spot and had to take measures. In light of recent
discussions re
breastfeeding and parenting, I am thinking what an appropriate
boundary
might be within a family or yahoogroup.
Suspension is a form of alienation. It is like sending a kid to his
room,
but he/she is still in the house, so not "thrown out". However,
that still
causes the child to feel separate and abandoned, and not part of
the family.
I once had a foster child, and if she had raging tantrums in the
living
room, she did have to go to her room, but I went with her, to
alleviate the
component of abandonment. It was preferable for her to stay in the
living
room, but with me or my husband containing her physical and verbal
violent
outbursts. This also alleviated the component of secret goings on
in the
living room when she wasn't there. The containment, and discussion
of her
behaviour were not secret, and transparency to everyone. This was
educational for my own kids, as they saw the process and learnedafter the
from it.
So in that spirit, I would recommend inclusion in the group for
Mellett, but
his postings should be put on moderation as YahooGroups allows, and
if they
are considered inappropriate by Chris who is responsible for the
overall
well being of the group, then they simply shouldn'tt be approved for
broadcast. On good behaviour after any number of months deemed
appropriate,
Mellett could go back to "unmoderated" status.
Sincerely
Anita Roy
On 18/01/2008, Paul Chung <paulchung@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:paulchung%40paulchung.com.hk> > wrote:
like to
Dear all,
I want to explore further from a systemic point of view. I would
know if Chris has to right to set up a constellation to explore ifWhile the
"suspension" is the best solution for the interest of the group?
"group' also include Tom, does he has to right to mediate /regulate in
thea view to
constellation if he detects entanglement between Tom & Bert with
benefit the group. "Has the right" does not imply "has to drive".to have
I support Chris to blow the whistle. I would further support Tom
the
access to read what is going on with the rest of the group
whichsuspension. Again "have the access" does not imply he "has theinterest".
are the
To me, Tom's email, as well as Bert's new style in recent years,
best arrangement or the fate of the SC community. "Yes, that'sright"
out from
In Chinese medicine, we give ways for the heat in fever to pass
theis when
body rather than to "stop" or "neutralise" it. A typical example
a baby or small child has fever, we'd rub our hands with medicineoil to
heat before placing it over the baby's feet to direct the heatfrom there.
Or we mop the baby's body with warm wet towel to drain away theheat as
theworld
water evaporates from the body. While some people in the western
willFrom our
place ice cube / pad over the baby's forehead to keep it "cool".
perspective, more heat will drain away from the "cooled" foreheadand the
brain cell may be damaged if the baby has a high temperature. Weconsider
directing the heat away with warm wet towel or heated palm overthe feet
are<levye%40rcn.com>>:
much safer.
Paul responding from Hong Kong,
a place where eastern & western culture conglomerate
2008/1/18, Ed Levy <levye@xxxxxxx <mailto:levye%40rcn.com>
Chris,
Thanks for addressing the issue of Tom's inflammable speech,
worldwide FCdoesn'tstarved need
suit the purpose of this forum or meet his own seemingly
for<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
attention and contact. I hope he finds both in a healthier way.
Ed Levy
_____
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>]<tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com><tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com>
On Behalf Of Chris Walsh
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:38 AM
To: tmasthenes13@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com>
chance toSubject: FW: [ConstellationTalk] When Bert finally croaks . .
Dear Tom,
I'm sorry but this email of yours is totally over the top and
inappropriate.
Accordingly I have removed you from the list to give you a
coolappropriate
your heals and reflect.
You can reapply to join the group in two months if you make
Alisonapologies to the people you insulted in your email especially
Rose40yahoogroups.com>
Levy, Ed Levy Ed Lynch and Bert Hellinger.
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
webpage: www.cwalsh.com.au
From: ConstellationTalk@ <mailto:ConstellationTalk%
40yahoogroups.com>yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@ ;<mailto:ConstellationTalk%
40yahoogroups.com>yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tmasthenes13
Sent: Friday, 18 January 2008 7:51 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@ <mailto:ConstellationTalk%
"belongsyahoogroups.com
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] When Bert finally croaks . .
Greetings to one and all! As the "Phantom Constellator" who
by not belonging," I just dropped in "to see what condition my
condition was in" and to offer my contribution to the
says, wefinallycommunity when our esteemed Father Anton Suitbert Hellinger
croaks.
I choose to describe this future event with a cheeky (actually
throaty!) English slang verb for dying because, as Jesus
"croch"be adon't know the hour of our passing, and ole' Bert might live to
kicks offhundred! Hell, the sonofabitch might outlive me!!!
But the actuarial tables predict otherwise, so odds are, he
postingbefore I do. Therefore, I need a way for you all to stamp this
referenceinto your memories and contact me when Bert's time is up and he
sojourns to that Great Constellation in the sky.
[for those subscribers whose first language is not English, the
etymology of the word "croak" meaning "to die" is either a
person'sto the frog-like sound of the "death rattle" emitted as the
last breath on the deathbed, or else the Irish Gaelic verb
on ameaning "to hang" --- not only with a rope but also to "hang
obsessivelycross," i.e. "to crucify."]
Here's my offering. For the last few weeks I have been
songsinging the moving and stirring German military requiem/elegy
envisionBirthday Bashthat Bert had requested to be sung at his 2006 Bavarian
Decemberas Max Dauskardt reported to us in his posting #3009 dated
3009>18, 2006. Click here to read Max's post
http://health.
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/
Goodgroups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/3009
The song is known either by its title: "Mein guter Kamerad" (My
comrade.)Comrade)
or its opening line, "Ich hatte einen Kameraden" (I once had a
history:
Here's an English Wikipedia entry for the song, its use and
http://en.wikipedia ;<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_hatte_einen_Kameraden>
.org/wiki/Ich_hatte_einen_Kameraden
I possess a very good and booming Irish tenor voice and I
Perhapschorus, butsinging this hymn at whatever memorial service for Bert we will
organize in Southern California.
(I would also recite his poem to Adolf Hitler in both his German
original and in my English translation.)
Ideally, the Comrade elegy should be sung by a large men's
I'm able to sing for ten men in case I have to sing solo.
conferencethis notice might inspire other men to form a chorus.
I'd be willing to travel to any constellation center or
constellations!during the one year of official mourning for our beloved father
figure. What a way to set the mood for any and all
when theHope you have enough floor space for all the horizontal
representatives you'll have!
(I can see it now. You know that point in a constellation
process.rep's knees start buckling as they get ready to drop dead? Hey,
sometimes it's the most comfortable position in the whole
died!)up toI've actually fallen asleep as rep on the floor, only to wake
the facilitator needing to convince me that I had actually
twowinemaster, "Over
Also, we should be proactive and consult our erudite
Easy" Eddie Lynch, who should be able to provide cases of the
LevySophievintage wines: Bert Nouveau and Bert Classique. (Isn't there a
2007Liebfraumilch vintage as well?)
Check Ed Lynch's wine review in this posting #3550 of August 4,
3550>http://health.
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/
groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/3550
Oh, I just had a thought! Alison, perhaps you and your Eddie
vintages!could provide some kosher wine, maybe Mogen David for the Jewish
representatives. We'll need both perpetrator and victim
minutes
All of the following You Tube videos are no longer than 3
be nothe samelong. Some are just 2 minutes long. Each and every one plays
tempomen's choral rendition of the song at a slow requiem or elegiac
tempo--- except for [3] which moves at the very stirring faster
in theof a battle hymn. [5] has best sound quality.
Do watch all 8 videos as they are not duplicates of each other
shortchosen photos or movie clips of the German soldiers. I give a
expresses adescription of each video.
Tom Mellett
Van Nuys, CA
==================================
(B/W = Black and White)
[1] Color still photos with German sub-titles. Each photo
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds&;> &>line of the song
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds>
com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds
sequencecom/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds&> &
[2] B/W still photos, with English translation of each line in
shooting,http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pj2EE5WNkw>
com/watch?v=6pj2EE5WNkw
[3] B/W & colorized MOVIE CLIPS, sung at very UPBEAT TEMPO
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpMPUgaEEXQ>
com/watch?v=qpMPUgaEEXQ
[4] Actual B/W MOVIE CLIPS of soldiers marching, deploying,
etc.<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c&NR=1> &NR=1>
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c>
com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo&;> &>com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c&NR=1> &NR=1
[5] Good color still photos, no words, but BEST SOUND QUALITY!
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo>
com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo
caringcom/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo&> &
=======================================
[6] Posted by German. B/W still photos, all corpses or scenes of
destruction
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24ssJzAtlD0>
com/watch?v=24ssJzAtlD0
[7] Posted by German. B/W still photos, almost all are living
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8&NR=1> &NR=1>for wounded.
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8>
com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8
situationscom/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8&NR=1> &NR=1
[8] B/W still photos, no corpses, only positive military
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI&NR=1> &NR=1>http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI>
com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI
musiccom/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI&NR=1> &NR=1
===============================
(Poem written in 1809 by German poet Ludwig Uhland and set to
by Swiss composer Friedrich Silcher in 1825)
=====================
Ich hatt' einen Kameraden,
Einen bessern findst du nit.
Die Trommel schlug zum Streite,
Er ging an meiner Seite
In gleichem Schritt und Tritt.
In gleichem Schritt und Tritt.
Eine Kugel kam geflogen,
Gilt's mir oder gilt es dir?
Ihn hat es weggerissen,
Er liegt mir vor den Füßen,
Als wär's ein Stück von mir.
Als wär's ein Stück von mir.
Will mir die Hand noch reichen,
Derweil ich eben lad.
Kann dir die Hand nicht geben,
Bleib du im ew'gen Leben
Mein guter Kamerad!
Mein guter Kamerad!
======================
My literal translation:
-------------------------
I once had a comrade
You will never find a better one!
The drums beat for battle.
He went right at my side
with equal gait and stride.
with equal gait and stride.
A bullet came flying
Meant for me or meant for you?
It tore him apart
He lies at my feet
As if he was a piece of me.
As if he was a piece of me.
He still wants to give me his hand
All the while I am reloading:
"I cannot give you my hand!
So stay in eternal life,
My good Comrade,
My good Comrade!"
============================================
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
When a great ship is in harbor and moored, it is safe, there can
doubt. But that is not what great ships are built for.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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