Thank you Joseph and Donna,
My final words on the subject are these: I have experienced abortion in the
constellations as well as murder and the giving away of a child which Bert says
is equal to murder in the system and both of the latter had a huge level of
suffering associated with it for the symptom bearers but abortion has not.
Abortion has had an impact but nothing equal to that of murder. I thank you
all for your feedback and the joy of expressing these ideas and though I will
continue to read your responses, I feel I have said all I have to say on the
subject.
Deep Bow to the Truth,
Barbara
-------------- Original message --------------
From: drjmpirone <drjmpirone@xxxxxxx>
Dear Donna and Barbara,
Perhaps all attempts to enword aspects of the field are at best
metaphorical...if that were so,then the verb"to murder' in English translated
from the German might possibly be metaphorically translated" to use the word
murder means that the field generated by one human person at some stage of its
potential for becoming real has been abruptly stopped with the concommitant
creation of other fields that are profoundly important for us to allow
ourselves to be aware of".
In this sense it allerts those hearing "murder" to wake up,take notice and to
take heed that the matter is not simple but potentially profound in the akashic
residues it leaves.
I was at one Bert workshop where a woman stated when asked how many abortions
she had had replied"7 or 8 not sure".
Bert choose not to work with her.
As Bert seems to use it in the actual field of a workshop, it does not seem to
me to be a condemnatory judgement but rather a realistic awareness of the
importance of the abrupt ending through intentional cause of a state of being
human and the profound responsibility inherent in the ending of potential
creation .That state as is true of all states in his work in situ is ideally
held by him and others with compassion , not condemnation. To profoundly
interrupt the flow of being demands a level of great awareness. Those with
knowledge of Bert's actual language usage might well investigate whether he
refers to the process as murder or those involved as "murderers". I do not
believe he would say the later..if he did then he might well be reminded of the
words"Let he who is without guilt cast the first stone". Existentially there is
no one without guilt relative to the akashic fields that effect as fate our
actions, rough hew them as we will.
Here as always I sense the problem is the challenge if not impossibility of
attempting to enword the ineffable.Out of the context of the field,language in
the sense that the word is adequate to the experience and hence of 'truth"
becomes mere speech , signifying nothing... or worse denting the present field
of hope and compassion in which unityy again comes to be. Thank you so much for
the courage and directness of your dialogue..,Joseph Pirone,drjmpirone@xxxxxxx
,web.mac.com/drjmpirone
On Saturday, October 21, 2006, at 02:23PM, <beggenberger@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear Donna,
Perhaps there is a need for clarification on the word "Murder." If intentional
ending of a life equals murder then accidental deaths caused by driving over
someone do not fit, as intention is missing. The more we Talk about it, the
murkier it gets. Asking people not to feel judged when their actions are
called "murderous" seems a bit much to ask. I suspect that Bert and his
Catholic background may have more judgment associated with abortion than what
shows up in the field. Interpretations of any kind are limited to the minds
through which they are communicated.
That said, I do believe any experience that we as humans do not fully come to
terms with, i.e., any energetic contraction that inhibits our flow and
therefore our family's flow, does need to be held and honored and experienced
for our flow to be restored. I can easily accept that abortions are related to
other aspects of the system and are attempts to balance out, by re-enactment,
previous entanglements. I do not see them as murder. If, as Bert says,
murderers must leave the system, does that then apply to those who have had
abortions? I guess I do not understand the intention of assigning the word
murder other than for shock or controversy, both of which Bert's work is full
of for reasons I am sure he must know and support.
If intentional ending of a life is murder than killing my husband for his life
insurance, assisting in the suicide of my mother's much needed death and
ending a pregnancy that had high potential for long-term suffering or may have
endgangered the mother's life are all the same? Please! What does calling
abortion murder do for us? How does it assist healing?
I am feeling that the less I know and the more innocently I approach this work
with a beginner's mind, the less damage I will do.
In Innocence and Love,
Barbara
-------------- Original message --------------
From: donna joy <aumpeace@xxxxxxx>
In an attempt to clear any misinterpretations of my posting- just in case.
Just because Bert considers abortion murder, doesn't mean it is a judgment,
etc. It doen't mean it is unjustified, etc. I have had to have 2 medical
abortions. Whatever the reason- Bert says in the work- It's called murder. It
is treated like a murder. So, if grandmom kills the neighbor by driving over
him grandaughter may have an abortion down the road. This is how they stay
connected. They have both participated in the death of another. Yes, grandmom
had an accident and Peggy Sue was drunk and got taken advantage of, but they
are both seen as murders and are treated as such when doing constellations-
according to Bert.
It is much eaiser for us to justify our behavior- no brain yet, was going to
die anyway, etc. The sooner we face the reality that intentional ending life
is called murder- the sooner we can heal.
Again, there isn't a judgment attached by me to the word murder, but perhaps
we judge ourselves.
----------------------------------------
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:35:36 -0700
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Abortion
Dear Barb,
Regardless what anyone's says and I totally agree with you. I might ad what
the man or woman does in their life after that or even the following
children is very, very important NOT to overlook. Whether it be guilt,
atonements, divorce, suicide, drug use, alcoholism etc...I've represented
abortions and miscarriages in which there was a lifetime of information and
perfection in this fate. Who are any of us to judge. We just want to release
the client from negative affects AND remember ABOVE all Spirit does not
die.. It transforms and is in the field of the mother most times... This
fetal energy brought me to be a facilitator as I've been tapped many time to
alert its parents that it is important and still around them and or me too
to help!
Much love to very facet of this work and human existence, Gary Stuart LA,
CA
By the way.....abortions can be a loyalty to a previous generations that
lost a child as well.
Copy-cat grief etc....
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
beggenberger@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 10:07 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Abortion
Thank you Brenda,
I was aghast at the idea that Bert considered all abortions murder and I
have yet to see them show up as murder. Just the opposite in fact. A
loving exchange saddened by grief and loss but a tenderness and acceptance
that feels very different to me than the shock and guilt and extreme
suppression that shows up when a murder is entangling a system. The Pope
may consider abortion murder and Bert as well but I remain comitted to
listening to what the field tells me and I suspect that this most forgiving
field knows the difference in a person's heart between wanting to end a
pregnancy and wanting to destroy a life.
Peace to all,
Barbara
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Brenda Sutherland <awakeningwoman@xxxxxxxxxxx> Hi David
I would like to comment in regards to the abortion question.
Sometimes an abortion can be a sacrifice, ie a way of balancing, giving in
return to a peoples whom have been killed, in honour of a curse, which can
be unconscious in the abortion process but effects the system.
It seems also to be the circumstances and the psychological, physical etc
dynamics that effect the system in regards to an aborted child.
Brenda Sutherland
On 20/10/2006, at 7:48 PM, ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Constellation Talk
Messages In This Digest (7 Messages)
1a.
Re: Questions re my current clients From: EJ52@xxxxxxx 1b.
Re: Questions re my current clients From: EJ52@xxxxxxx 1c.
Re: Questions re my current clients From: donna joy 2.
Re: Mirror neurons,metaphors for those not yet in the work From:
drjmpirone
3a.
Re: Abortion From: DIANE YANKELEVITZ
3b.
Re: Abortion From: donna joy
3c.
Re: Abortion From: DIANE YANKELEVITZ
View All Topics | Create New Topic
Messages
1a.
Re: Questions re my current clients
Posted by: "EJ52@xxxxxxx" EJ52@xxxxxxx
Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:45 am (PST)
Donna and others,
My concern is that as the work moves away from mostly therapists
and health
filed workers as the majority clients and more and more into the
mainstream
where afacilitator can meet up with
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Messages in this topic (6)
1b.
Re: Questions re my current clients
Posted by: "EJ52@xxxxxxx" EJ52@xxxxxxx
Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:59 am (PST)
the rest of the thoughts
...that there are not enough supports in place to insure the safety
of the
therapists and clients. For example, supervision, support of the
work kinds of
groups, not sufficient training (I do not believe a one year
training is
sufficient), mentorship, etc. After all who needs a lawsuit?
And for the client's protection as more and more of them come forward
bearing pathological issues and disorders, how to protect them from
charlatans,
the unprepared, the unethical ones the ones who cannot diagnose
appropriately.
This is what professional associations are about -standards,
ethics, best
practices, etc.
As we evolve these may become important issues and questions.
Ed Lynch
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Messages in this topic (6)
1c.
Re: Questions re my current clients
Posted by: "donna joy" aumpeace@xxxxxxx
Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:25 pm (PST)
I am not sure what you are saying.
I will clarify what I am saying, however.
I have simply put out some questions re real issues that I haven't
seen in constellations. Yes, there is the general opinion that when
incest is involved the mom is not available to dad... what do we
look at when there is another child, or a stranger, etc. Are there
any lightbulbs, etc.
By asking questions, it doesn't mean that I will run out tommorow
and take any advice as gospel. This is a discussion of ideas,
experiences, etc.
----------------------------------------
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxsafety of the
From: EJ52@xxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:51:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Questions re my current clients
the rest of the thoughts
...that there are not enough supports in place to insure the
therapists and clients. For example, supervision, support of thework kinds of
groups, not sufficient training (I do not believe a one yeartraining is
sufficient), mentorship, etc. After all who needs a lawsuit?forward
And for the client's protection as more and more of them come
bearing pathological issues and disorders, how to protect themfrom charlatans,
the unprepared, the unethical ones the ones who cannot diagnoseappropriately.
This is what professional associations are about -standards,ethics, best
practices, etc.
As we evolve these may become important issues and questions.
Ed Lynch
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Messages in this topic (6)
2.
Re: Mirror neurons,metaphors for those not yet in the work
Posted by: "drjmpirone" drjmpirone@xxxxxxx dechardin1
Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:11 am (PST)
Hey there Ed, would it be worthwhile to draw a distinction between
the space the work is done in, which you describe so beautifully,
and the place whereBert's Work belongs in the histotory, present
and future of psychotherapy,healing and transpersonal psychology.?
All constellations are blind in the sense that the content of the
experience is not in us...it is given from elsewhere.Those of us
who are teachers as well as practitioners are often asked what the
work is about,where does it fit relative to other methods like
psychodrama,Gestalt etc.Would it be helpful to be able to give
others outside of the work metaphors that glide them near ,not to
the space in which the work is done, using subtle bench marks to
point the way.? In your teaching, how do you explain what his work
is like, as opposed to what it is.Thanks drjmpirone@xxxxxxx
On Thursday, October 19, 2006, at 01:07AM, Gary Stuart
<Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<<Original Attached>>
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Messages in this topic (16)
3a.
Re: Abortion
Posted by: "DIANE YANKELEVITZ" diane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx astrodiane
Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:30 pm (PST)
David,
The way I was taught, the difference is if the representative for
the aborted child can stand. My teacher found that is usually about
3 months, or 12 weeks. If the rep can stand, the child counts in
the order of siblings. So check this out in your constellations and
see if it seems true or not. I haven't heard anything about various
methods of abortion making any difference, so far.
Diane Yankelevitz
Bozeman, MT
----- Original Message -----
From: David Grillo
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
Does it make a difference in constellations, if a child is aborthed
in the
first 7 weeks or after? Also, Is there a difference between taking
the RU486
(the pill) or suction (the traditional suction method) ?
David
.
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Messages in this topic (4)
3b.
Re: Abortion
Posted by: "donna joy" aumpeace@xxxxxxx
Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:19 pm (PST)
When I saw Bert in July, he made it very clear that his new opinion
is that abortion is murder. When you intend to kill, that is
murder. It doesn't matter when you do the act.
Donna
----------------------------------------
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxthe aborted child can stand. My teacher found that is usually about
From: diane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:28:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
David,
The way I was taught, the difference is if the representative for
3 months, or 12 weeks. If the rep can stand, the child counts in
the order of siblings. So check this out in your constellations and
see if it seems true or not. I haven't heard anything about various
methods of abortion making any difference, so far.
Diane Yankelevitzaborthed in the
Bozeman, MT
----- Original Message -----
From: David Grillo
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
Does it make a difference in constellations, if a child is
first 7 weeks or after? Also, Is there a difference betweentaking the RU486
(the pill) or suction (the traditional suction method) ?
David
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Messages in this topic (4)
3c.
Re: Abortion
Posted by: "DIANE YANKELEVITZ" diane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx astrodiane
Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:09 pm (PST)
I will have to clarify that my comments related to miscarriages as
well as abortions, and I acknowledge Bert's view.
Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message -----
From: donna joy
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
When I saw Bert in July, he made it very clear that his new opinion
is that abortion is murder. When you intend to kill, that is
murder. It doesn't matter when you do the act.
Donna
----------------------------------------
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxthe aborted child can stand. My teacher found that is usually about
From: diane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:28:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
David,
The way I was taught, the difference is if the representative for
3 months, or 12 weeks. If the rep can stand, the child counts in
the order of siblings. So check this out in your constellations and
see if it seems true or not. I haven't heard anything about various
methods of abortion making any difference, so far.
Diane Yankelevitzaborthed in the
Bozeman, MT
----- Original Message -----
From: David Grillo
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
Does it make a difference in constellations, if a child is
first 7 weeks or after? Also, Is there a difference betweentaking the RU486
(the pill) or suction (the traditional suction method) ?
David
.
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Messages in this topic (4)
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