Dear Donna,
I know that you are not speaking out of judgement. Yet I think events like
abortions are beyond words and definitions. I find Bert's use of the word
murder as a bit exxagerated....especially when Im trying to see if theres a
difference between killing a foetus or removing the potential of it in the
first 7 weeks which means that cells would have been formed...
Thanks for all the feedback Im recieving
david
-------Original Message-------
From: donna joy
Date: 10/21/06 12:34:52
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Abortion
In an attempt to clear any misinterpretations of my posting- just in case.
Just because Bert considers abortion murder, doesn't mean it is a judgement,
etc. It doen't mean it is unjustified, etc. I have had to have 2 medical
abortions. Whatever the reason- Bert says in the work- It's called murder.
It is treated like a murder. So, if grandmom kills the neighbor by driving
over
him grandaughter may have an abortion down the road. This is how they stay
connected. They have both participated in the death of another. Yes,
grandmom had an accident and Peggy Sue was drunk and got taken advantage of,
but they are both seen as murders and are treated as such when doing
constellations- according to Bert.
It is much eaiser for us to justify our behavior- no brain yet, was going to
die anyway, etc. The sooner we face the reality that intentional ending life
is called murder- the sooner we can heal.
Again, there isn't a judgement attached by me to the word murder, but
perhaps we judge ourselves.
----------------------------------------
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxwhat
From: Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:35:36 -0700
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Abortion
Dear Barb,
Regardless what anyone's says and I totally agree with you. I might ad
the man or woman does in their life after that or even the followingand
children is very, very important NOT to overlook. Whether it be guilt,
atonements, divorce, suicide, drug use, alcoholism etc...I've represented
abortions and miscarriages in which there was a lifetime of information
perfection in this fate. Who are any of us to judge. We just want torelease
the client from negative affects AND remember ABOVE all Spirit does notto
die.. It transforms and is in the field of the mother most times... This
fetal energy brought me to be a facilitator as I've been tapped many time
alert its parents that it is important and still around them and or me tooforgiving
to help!
Much love to very facet of this work and human existence, Gary Stuart LA,
CA
By the way.....abortions can be a loyalty to a previous generations that
lost a child as well.
Copy-cat grief etc....
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
beggenberger@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 10:07 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Abortion
Thank you Brenda,
I was aghast at the idea that Bert considered all abortions murder and I
have yet to see them show up as murder. Just the opposite in fact. A
loving exchange saddened by grief and loss but a tenderness and acceptance
that feels very different to me than the shock and guilt and extreme
suppression that shows up when a murder is entangling a system. The Pope
may consider abortion murder and Bert as well but I remain comitted to
listening to what the field tells me and I suspect that this most
field knows the difference in a person's heart between wanting to end a
pregnancy and wanting to destroy a life.
Peace to all,
Barbara
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Brenda Sutherland <awakeningwoman@xxxxxxxxxxx> Hi David
I would like to comment in regards to the abortion question.
Sometimes an abortion can be a sacrifice, ie a way of balancing, giving in
return to a peoples whom have been killed, in honour of a curse, which can
be unconscious in the abortion process but effects the system.
It seems also to be the circumstances and the psychological, physical etc
dynamics that effect the system in regards to an aborted child.
Brenda Sutherland
On 20/10/2006, at 7:48 PM, ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Constellation Talk
Messages In This Digest (7 Messages)
1a.
Re: Questions re my current clients From: EJ52@xxxxxxx 1b.
Re: Questions re my current clients From: EJ52@xxxxxxx 1c.
Re: Questions re my current clients From: donna joy 2.
Re: Mirror neurons,metaphors for those not yet in the work From:
drjmpirone
3a.
Re: Abortion From: DIANE YANKELEVITZ
3b.
Re: Abortion From: donna joy
3c.
Re: Abortion From: DIANE YANKELEVITZ
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Messages
1a.
Re: Questions re my current clients
Posted by: "EJ52@xxxxxxx" EJ52@xxxxxxx
Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:45 am (PST)
Donna and others,
My concern is that as the work moves away from mostly therapists
and health
filed workers as the majority clients and more and more into the
mainstream
where afacilitator can meet up with
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Messages in this topic (6)
1b.
Re: Questions re my current clients
Posted by: "EJ52@xxxxxxx" EJ52@xxxxxxx
Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:59 am (PST)
the rest of the thoughts
...that there are not enough supports in place to insure the safety
of the
therapists and clients. For example, supervision, support of the
work kinds of
groups, not sufficient training (I do not believe a one year
training is
sufficient), mentorship, etc. After all who needs a lawsuit?
And for the client's protection as more and more of them come forward
bearing pathological issues and disorders, how to protect them from
charlatans,
the unprepared, the unethical ones the ones who cannot diagnose
appropriately.
This is what professional associations are about -standards,
ethics, best
practices, etc.
As we evolve these may become important issues and questions.
Ed Lynch
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1c.
Re: Questions re my current clients
Posted by: "donna joy" aumpeace@xxxxxxx
Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:25 pm (PST)
I am not sure what you are saying.
I will clarify what I am saying, however.
I have simply put out some questions re real issues that I haven't
seen in constellations. Yes, there is the general opinion that when
incest is involved the mom is not available to dad... what do we
look at when there is another child, or a stranger, etc. Are there
any lightbulbs, etc.
By asking questions, it doesn't mean that I will run out tommorow
and take any advice as gospel. This is a discussion of ideas,
experiences, etc.
----------------------------------------
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxsafety of the
From: EJ52@xxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:51:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Questions re my current clients
the rest of the thoughts
...that there are not enough supports in place to insure the
therapists and clients. For example, supervision, support of thework kinds of
groups, not sufficient training (I do not believe a one yeartraining is
sufficient), mentorship, etc. After all who needs a lawsuit?forward
And for the client's protection as more and more of them come
bearing pathological issues and disorders, how to protect themfrom charlatans,
the unprepared, the unethical ones the ones who cannot diagnoseappropriately.
This is what professional associations are about -standards,ethics, best
practices, etc.
As we evolve these may become important issues and questions.
Ed Lynch
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Messages in this topic (6)
2.
Re: Mirror neurons,metaphors for those not yet in the work
Posted by: "drjmpirone" drjmpirone@xxxxxxx dechardin1
Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:11 am (PST)
Hey there Ed, would it be worthwhile to draw a distinction between
the space the work is done in, which you describe so beautifully,
and the place whereBert's Work belongs in the histotory, present
and future of psychotherapy,healing and transpersonal psychology.?
All constellations are blind in the sense that the content of the
experience is not in us...it is given from elsewhere.Those of us
who are teachers as well as practitioners are often asked what the
work is about,where does it fit relative to other methods like
psychodrama,Gestalt etc.Would it be helpful to be able to give
others outside of the work metaphors that glide them near ,not to
the space in which the work is done, using subtle bench marks to
point the way.? In your teaching, how do you explain what his work
is like, as opposed to what it is.Thanks drjmpirone@xxxxxxx
On Thursday, October 19, 2006, at 01:07AM, Gary Stuart
<Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<<Original Attached>>
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Messages in this topic (16)
3a.
Re: Abortion
Posted by: "DIANE YANKELEVITZ" diane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx astrodiane
Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:30 pm (PST)
David,
The way I was taught, the difference is if the representative for
the aborted child can stand. My teacher found that is usually about
3 months, or 12 weeks. If the rep can stand, the child counts in
the order of siblings. So check this out in your constellations and
see if it seems true or not. I haven't heard anything about various
methods of abortion making any difference, so far.
Diane Yankelevitz
Bozeman, MT
----- Original Message -----
From: David Grillo
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
Does it make a difference in constellations, if a child is aborthed
in the
first 7 weeks or after? Also, Is there a difference between taking
the RU486
(the pill) or suction (the traditional suction method) ?
David
.
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Messages in this topic (4)
3b.
Re: Abortion
Posted by: "donna joy" aumpeace@xxxxxxx
Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:19 pm (PST)
When I saw Bert in July, he made it very clear that his new opinion
is that abortion is murder. When you intend to kill, that is
murder. It doesn't matter when you do the act.
Donna
----------------------------------------
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxthe aborted child can stand. My teacher found that is usually about
From: diane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:28:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
David,
The way I was taught, the difference is if the representative for
3 months, or 12 weeks. If the rep can stand, the child counts in
the order of siblings. So check this out in your constellations and
see if it seems true or not. I haven't heard anything about various
methods of abortion making any difference, so far.
Diane Yankelevitzaborthed in the
Bozeman, MT
----- Original Message -----
From: David Grillo
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
Does it make a difference in constellations, if a child is
first 7 weeks or after? Also, Is there a difference betweentaking the RU486
(the pill) or suction (the traditional suction method) ?
David
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Messages in this topic (4)
3c.
Re: Abortion
Posted by: "DIANE YANKELEVITZ" diane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx astrodiane
Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:09 pm (PST)
I will have to clarify that my comments related to miscarriages as
well as abortions, and I acknowledge Bert's view.
Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message -----
From: donna joy
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
When I saw Bert in July, he made it very clear that his new opinion
is that abortion is murder. When you intend to kill, that is
murder. It doesn't matter when you do the act.
Donna
----------------------------------------
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxthe aborted child can stand. My teacher found that is usually about
From: diane@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:28:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
David,
The way I was taught, the difference is if the representative for
3 months, or 12 weeks. If the rep can stand, the child counts in
the order of siblings. So check this out in your constellations and
see if it seems true or not. I haven't heard anything about various
methods of abortion making any difference, so far.
Diane Yankelevitzaborthed in the
Bozeman, MT
----- Original Message -----
From: David Grillo
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Abortion
Does it make a difference in constellations, if a child is
first 7 weeks or after? Also, Is there a difference betweentaking the RU486
(the pill) or suction (the traditional suction method) ?
David
.
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Messages in this topic (4)
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