Hello David and all who are sharing so deeply and authentically in the recent
threads. I am grateful for the opportunity to absorb each experience and story
and reflect upon the questions raised. So wonderful to witness and share
consciousness being provoked by authentic enquiry here of late.
David I have a few thoughts on what caused A.
Here is an interesting link also provoking the conscious understandings of
diminishing or disappearing dimensions.
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/space/stories/did-the-universe-begin-as-a-simple-1-d-line
Osho also touched briefly on something similar in the following quote referring
to crisscrossing of energy currents manifesting matter
http://www.osho.com/library/online-library-nothingness-tilopa-point-553dbcaa-d50.aspx
I understand that the belief in destiny, and a system that is never random
(Karma) is exactly what feeds conglomerate consciousness and prevents the
purifying of such consciousness. Hence the need for total detatchment from all
ideas and beliefs around this. As a group we are being challenged to do just
this now. All conglomerate lines of karma are linked to people who hurt each
other. However transforming or separating from all of this can happen in an
instant via returning to individual singularity, aloneness and the void with
awareness.
Huge topic!
That probably fits with your experience of how information fields interfere
with consciousness in your present work and how important it is to dissolve
these fields???
Kind regards and many thanks to all Sadhana
________________________________
From: David Mathes <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 8:07 AM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: towards a sense of conglomerate consciousness
Dear all,
When I read some posts on why things happened or people had a certain energy or
personality, or why someone was abused, seems we sometimes say A caused B.
But what caused A?
I think one reason I stopped practising Constellations is that I had difficulty
understanding Conglomerate Consciousness in the Constellation space.
If we believe in destiny, in a system, that things are never random, then there
is some reason or link between people who hurt each other.
The system is vast. And Conglomerate Consciousness has been evolving since we
left singularity when the first elements/ consciousness formed, and these are
possibly our first ancestors.
Have others explored this in the Constellation space, to help understand how we
are propelled today?
Have a nice day/evening!
david
www.amita-institute.com
David Mathes
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 8 Jul 2013 13:41:05
To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "No Reply"<notify-dg-ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Digest Number 2312
Constellation Talk
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4 New Messages
Digest #2312
1a
Re: New genders
by "Steve Vinay Gunther" nrgigestalt
1b
Re: New genders
by "Eimear O'Neill"
1c
Re: New genders
by "Michael Reddy" michaeljreddy
1d
Re: New genders
by "Heather Embree"
Messages
1a
Re: New genders
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/9790;_ylc=X3oDMTJxODNqdXE1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzk3OTAEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzI5MDg2NQ-->
Sun Jul 7, 2013 6:23 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Steve Vinay Gunther" nrgigestalt
<mailto:spirited@xxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20New%20genders>
As the son of a ts person (my father), I have pondered this a great deal. None
of the constellations I have done regarding my father have revealed anything
specific about the origins of his 'gender dysphoria', but then, that wasn't
what I was trying to explore in them.
Whatever mandatory 'counselling' is required for people considering a gender
transition tends to be quite shallow, with no systemic orientation at all. And
the whole transition process is conducted by the medical profession as if its
just one person going through the transition, where of course its actually a
whole family, a circle of friends, and often a workplace where that person
resides. This lack of a systemic sensitivity or interest is very damaging for
the whole system, and everyone involved, and usually results in the
fragmentation of relationships.
That aside, its true that our constellation work is very much grounded in the
biological facts. And in this case, my father is and always will be my father.
It was his maleness that I came out of.
So the first constellation I did on the subject of his transition was
culminated by a beautiful line which Pytor and Otteline gave me: 'You are my
father, and you will always be my father, and I bow before your fate'. I still
remember that line on a regular basis. Its kind of like honouring order and
weight, while giving precedence to new systems.
And the social context for transsexuals is very difficult - they basically have
to choose a binary because thats how our world operates. But in fact, they are
not really someone of the opposite gender, no matter how much they may identify
with that. They are, in my opinion, a transsexual, something which involves a
unique holding of the two polarities. Without space to do that, and perhaps
even find some kind of integration, the only option seems to be a split: 'I was
a man, now I am a woman'. Thats certainly the path my father chose, and now
considers his male self to be another person, separate from her current
identity. She literally cut that part of herself off.
As a son, of course, I want him/her to hold both truths. But its too much, and
its up to me to hold both those truths. I am in contact with many children of
ts' and they all have similar struggles.
If you are interested, you can read an article I wrote more than a decade ago
for the Australian:
http://www.australianhumanitiesreview.org/archive/Issue-August-1997/gunther.html
I get a letter every few weeks from a child of a ts who has read it, and
reaches out for support - theres not many resources out there.
Well, this is a fascinating topic, and I am interested to see where else the
discussion might lead…
Vinay
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Top ^
1b
Re: New genders
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/9791;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZXFuY3JhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkwMDgyODcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYyMjE1BG1zZ0lkAzk3OTEEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzI5MDg2NQ-->
Sun Jul 7, 2013 10:27 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Eimear O'Neill"
<mailto:eimear@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=Re%3A%20New%20genders>
Your words reach me Steve. I so appreciate the depth and the heart in your
understandings of systems.
Does that mean I will follow your understanding blindly for the rest of my
life? No. What feels good is that you welcome response. It is not from on high.
I do not do Hellingerisms, Freudian slips, or Holy Father anything' any longer
without my Holy Mother, Cosmic Life-giver, and Star Origins. Radical
inclusivity means this is beyond human gender and sexualities as we have
currently decided they are constructed! This is also both/and fully rooted and
told in our bodies, in our biological realities as they unfold in relationship
with others, with all our relations. Women bear human life, men seed it.
Selecting which sperm are taken into the ovum arises at the membrane of the
ovum as far as we have some understanding of these things. We will get to know
more about that.
Transformative understandings become deeper and more interesting, ever more
truly erotic and life-celebrating, as it goes on becoming ever more inclusive
and recursive.Those on Constellation Talk know that we deal with in
constellations work is more than about humans' current ways of handing emerging
genders and sexualities. The wave of transformation in human conscious that we
are presently riding, is a rogue wave. Tumultous. Rapid and disruptive at
multiple deep levels in our functioning together as a species on one planet.
This goes beyond any human binary ways of talking about women or men as if they
were "the opposite gender" rather than the "other gender". This feeds into our
future, into our vision of care-taking together, of care-giving, peace-keeping,
peace-building, knowledge and education, visionary leadership and connection to
larger Spirit together. Then we are then more in our healing roles, more fully
sharing this planet as one earthed
community. Dynamic, co-creating... and in it for the long haul....... doing
what Joanna Macy calls "acting our age" at 67 billion years old.
We need to keep a loving gaze on those patriarchal loyalties that hold men and
women in thrall to cultural norms and fragmented in their emerging selves, to
free them further from spiritual , political, tribal or corporate empires bent
on exclusionary principles or the principle of extermination of the other. This
is killing our very survival in diversity. Primarily these are a small tiny
number of humans from many peoples whose intention is to serve human profit no
matter the cost to the peoples, species, or living forms destroyed in doing
that. Constellations work is in transformation. Let us put loving intention
into working together lovingly, each from our own places within the wave... all
emergent selves moving into other ways of being together. It is following life
to do so.
With appreciation for all in the web of life,
Eimear
On 2013-07-07, at 9:23 AM, Steve Vinay Gunther wrote:
As the son of a ts person (my father), I have pondered this a great deal.
None of the constellations I have done regarding my father have revealed
anything specific about the origins of his 'gender dysphoria', but then, that
wasn't what I was trying to explore in them.
Whatever mandatory 'counselling' is required for people considering a gender
transition tends to be quite shallow, with no systemic orientation at all.
And the whole transition process is conducted by the medical profession as if
its just one person going through the transition, where of course its
actually a whole family, a circle of friends, and often a workplace where
that person resides. This lack of a systemic sensitivity or interest is very
damaging for the whole system, and everyone involved, and usually results in
the fragmentation of relationships.
That aside, its true that our constellation work is very much grounded in the
biological facts. And in this case, my father is and always will be my
father. It was his maleness that I came out of.
So the first constellation I did on the subject of his transition was
culminated by a beautiful line which Pytor and Otteline gave me: 'You are my
father, and you will always be my father, and I bow before your fate'. I
still remember that line on a regular basis. Its kind of like honouring order
and weight, while giving precedence to new systems.
And the social context for transsexuals is very difficult - they basically
have to choose a binary because thats how our world operates. But in fact,
they are not really someone of the opposite gender, no matter how much they
may identify with that. They are, in my opinion, a transsexual, something
which involves a unique holding of the two polarities. Without space to do
that, and perhaps even find some kind of integration, the only option seems
to be a split: 'I was a man, now I am a woman'. Thats certainly the path my
father chose, and now considers his male self to be another person, separate
from her current identity. She literally cut that part of herself off.
As a son, of course, I want him/her to hold both truths. But its too much,
and its up to me to hold both those truths. I am in contact with many
children of ts' and they all have similar struggles.
If you are interested, you can read an article I wrote more than a decade ago
for the Australian:
http://www.australianhumanitiesreview.org/archive/Issue-August-1997/gunther.html
I get a letter every few weeks from a child of a ts who has read it, and
reaches out for support - theres not many resources out there.
Well, this is a fascinating topic, and I am interested to see where else the
discussion might lead∑
Vinay
This topic brings up something I have been thinking about quite a bit
lately. In the Bay Area and around the world, there has been an explosion of
new experiences of gender. The phenomenon is nothing new, but its growth
lately, with the decrease of stigma and the increase of new role models, is
striking. I usually run my constellation events in an intentionally blind
format, so we don't assign roles by gender (a necessity anyway, since my
attendees are preponderantly female), but on rare occasions, assigning by
gender seems important to the client's outcome. On one of these nights, one
of my occasional attendees who is, I think, female-to-male transgender, but
who generally goes without a specific gender designation, was insulted and
felt very excluded by his inability to join in the gender-specific roles.
I still feel clear that what I did was in service to the client. However, it
does raise the question of how we view all this in constellation work, where
the role of male and female is so very central to the paradigm. How do we 1)
include alternatively-gendered clients, and 2) understand the role of
non-female and -male genders respectfully in the system? Right now I have a
spiritual directee who considers himself gender-queer, and I can only
imagine the critique he would have of the way we tend to assume the place of
males and females in our systemic thinking.
I have some thoughts on this myself, but I am really, really curious about
how members of this group are thinking about this emergence in our cultures.
I'm excited about what you will say!
Peace, Leslie
The Rev. Leslie Nipps, NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner
"Trust as a Way of Life..."
<http://www.leslienipps.com/> www.leslienipps.com
<mailto:leslie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:leslie%40leslienipps.com> >
leslie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:leslie%40leslienipps.com>
_____
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Heather Embree
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 7:24 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Divine Feminine: What Does She Want?
Thank you so much for stating this, Dan. It is true on many levels and yet
I wonder why the divine tries to express itself through male/female physical
forms. There is something about active/receptive and the unique wisdoms
that both experiences allow. The two-spirited people or those who have an
androgynous balance within, are considered to be highly evolved beings.
Mastery of both in awareness and consciousness, allows loving accepting of
all parts in a balanced, healthy way. This is why I love the movement of
transgendered peoples, bisexuality and queer lifestyles. The courage to
break out of the box and be oneself in all the ways of loving while in the
face of societal backlashes is a remarkable and beautiful act of Higher
Love. Yet, even within those communities, historically many stopped the
evolutionary flow by just identifying and acting out of pure sexuality,
which ultimately was necessary for self-exploration, and instead
self-destructed rather than embracing the full potential for great,
universal love.
May we support all of us to find the balance of the masculine/feminine
energies within to allow for greater loving consciousness.
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Dan Booth Cohen,
PhD
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 10:48 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Divine Feminine: What Does She Want?
Dear Anni and others -
In one sense, there is no masculine or feminine. For the interactions of
energy and matter in quantum space-time, masculine and feminine are
meaningless.
In one sense, the definitions of masculine and feminine are cultural
constructs. Naming God the Father, may tell us nothing about the truth of
God or fathers, but it does exert tremendous influence in the lives of
nearly every human, certainly all of us who speak and read English.
In one sense, masculine and feminine are physiologically determined. Men
have two tongues. Women have two mouths. Every human grows from a father's
seed and mother's egg in the womb.
There are some qualities of masculine and feminine that are meaningless,
some that are cultural constructs and some that are physical facts. I have
complex relationships with many women. I sometimes struggle to be mediate
between spirit, soul and body. Some relationships fail, some endure, some
become electric.
Thomas Bryson has written about human consciousness as having multiple
aspects like the ocean, the wave, and the water drop. Constellations expand
our awareness beyond the perspective of the drop. We can feel the pull of
the rise and fall of the wave we call the family system. Some Constellations
go beyond the drop and the wave. The ocean speaks to us directly: "I am
water. Feel me loving every part of you - there is no part that I do not
love!"
Dan
Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
2013 US Systemic Constellations Conference, October 10-13, Seattle, WA
<http://constellateus.com/conference2013/>
6th North American Systemic Constellations Intensive, July 31 - August 4,
2013, Farmington, CT <http://constellateus.com/intensive2013/>
<http://www.hiddensolution.com/> www.HiddenSolution.com
781-718-7158
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of anni
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 8:17 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Shiva, Kali, Divine Feminine, Destroyer of
the Worlds
Hello to all, The conversations here are so enriching. I want to add to the
thought Carolyn had when she wrote:
"This image of the divine couple certainly gives us a different view than
that of the Male War God and Subservient Sinful Woman stripped of her own
divinity. This image of the divine, and other Goddess images, challenge the
polarized assignments of attributes that are currently considered to be
"naturally" masculine or feminine. Such examination might even challenge
some of the "truths" we see in the field."
Yes, I do agree that whatever our learnings, they have the capacity to
influence the "truth" of what we see and do not see. It is not only images
but other blindnesses we have from language and culture that make our way of
seeing so difficult to shift. Here as we speak of feminine and masculine we
have been in most of this discussion in a masculine based culture where
power and status are aligned with what we see as masculine qualities. My own
culture of the Saami people historically was quite different although the
colonization by European religious and cultural attitudes has nearly
obliterated even references to the role of the feminine in that culture.
From what I can glean, women of this indigenous culture were not only equals
in hunting and politics but in spirituality the feminine appears to have the
highest of places. Being an Arctic culture, the sun is the most important
deity and this is a female goddess. The feminine comprises many of the
qualities we see many times in other cultures as male qualities. So is this
a truth?
I am currently reading a novel in which the author describes the ancient
Saami virgin not as a chaste woman but rather a woman who is sexually active
but has no man to which she answers. She is not married.
Why am I giving this information? Primarily, the truth as Carolyn suggests
is coloured by our experience and the myths to which we give credence. Truth
is an evasive quality. As facilitators, we are called to observe. At which
point when we speak are we being true to truth or only to the truth we
believe we know.
Working with First Nations indigenous individuals in Canada, I have observed
an order in some families that is different than the order we frequently see
in families of European descent. Are the orders a truth or a truth for that
cultural system?
Can we say with clarity what is feminine or masculine? Are these inherent
truths or socially accepted systemic manifestations?
Have a lovely weekend, Anni
_._,___
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3204/5956 - Release Date: 07/02/13
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As the son of a ts person (my father), I have pondered this a great deal.
None of the constellations I have done regarding my father have revealed
anything specific about the origins of his 'gender dysphoria', but then, that
wasn't what I was trying to explore in them.
Whatever mandatory 'counselling' is required for people considering a gender
transition tends to be quite shallow, with no systemic orientation at all.
And the whole transition process is conducted by the medical profession as if
its just one person going through the transition, where of course its
actually a whole family, a circle of friends, and often a workplace where
that person resides. This lack of a systemic sensitivity or interest is very
damaging for the whole system, and everyone involved, and usually results in
the fragmentation of relationships.
That aside, its true that our constellation work is very much grounded in the
biological facts. And in this case, my father is and always will be my
father. It was his maleness that I came out of.
So the first constellation I did on the subject of his transition was
culminated by a beautiful line which Pytor and Otteline gave me: 'You are my
father, and you will always be my father, and I bow before your fate'. I
still remember that line on a regular basis. Its kind of like honouring order
and weight, while giving precedence to new systems.
And the social context for transsexuals is very difficult - they basically
have to choose a binary because thats how our world operates. But in fact,
they are not really someone of the opposite gender, no matter how much they
may identify with that. They are, in my opinion, a transsexual, something
which involves a unique holding of the two polarities. Without space to do
that, and perhaps even find some kind of integration, the only option seems
to be a split: 'I was a man, now I am a woman'. Thats certainly the path my
father chose, and now considers his male self to be another person, separate
from her current identity. She literally cut that part of herself off.
As a son, of course, I want him/her to hold both truths. But its too much,
and its up to me to hold both those truths. I am in contact with many
children of ts' and they all have similar struggles.
If you are interested, you can read an article I wrote more than a decade ago
for the Australian:
http://www.australianhumanitiesreview.org/archive/Issue-August-1997/gunther.html
I get a letter every few weeks from a child of a ts who has read it, and
reaches out for support - theres not many resources out there.
Well, this is a fascinating topic, and I am interested to see where else the
discussion might lead∑
Vinay