Thank you Robert, the integrity of the self is indeed the reward of staying with shame and discovering responding creatively to any situation! Cristina
-----Original Message-----
From: "Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]"
Sent: Mar 21, 2016 8:02 PM
To: "ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame - corrected post
Hello Everyone,
I would like to share my appreciation for this opportunity to clarify my own thinking on the subject of shame. Great connection and engagement in this group, thank you all. Indeed there seems to be a natural human inclination to develop shame under certain circumstances. We seem to be particularly vulnerable of course in childhood.
I would agree that shame and blame are not the same, yet blame seems to have a connection with shame and the development of shame. That shame is wired into us – I disagree with. Once again to me it seems that only the potential to develop shame is wired into us. I would also agree that most of us do develop varying amounts of shame – due to our social environment. I further agree with Cristina in what she “would call healthy is not shame, but the ability to let it pass through our body mind and regain homoeostasis…..” In a way this is the crux of the argument.
It is also significant what Chris observed to be a challenge. If we believe that shame is an intrinsic and immutable part of us, on some level we can relax. The struggle to move beyond shame is over. We have accepted our limitations and fate. To me there is absolute merit in that.
The real punch line as so helpfully detailed by Chris, Jonine and others is the actual way we deal with shame; the being held, the empathic support, the humble acknowledgement, the somatic experiencing, the breathing, the staying with, the not running away. Indeed I suspect there is great reward if we manage to move through and beyond shame. The integrity of the self.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 8:08 AM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Robert
It is a real pity you are so attached to this discomfort about accepting the term healthy shame. I suggest that rather than accepting that this discomfort indicates that the term is wrong for you, that instead you just sit with the discomfort and see what treasures might emerge from it.
When you say: If shame is mild, quickly dissipating and non toxic why would it even present in the waiting room?
You make an extremely valid point. People don't present complaining about healthy shame. Why would they? But that doesn't mean they have a healthy realtionship with shame. They never will until they can embrace healthy shame. That's why we need to bring it into the therapeutic setting and into constellations.When I first learned constellation work there was a big emphasis on solution focus. The solution to toxic shame is not absence of shame. That is impossible as shame is a naturally occurring emotion. Charles Darwin even described it in animals. The only possible solution is healthy shame.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris, Jonine and All,
Indeed you are right in noting the assumption of blame as the underlying dynamic in shame. However without blame can we really talk about shame? If the self is not rebuked by the self what is behind the dampening emotional discomfort? Even mild embarrassment seems to indicate an emotional charge.
If shame is mild, quickly dissipating and non toxic why would it even present in the waiting room?
No matter how I am turning it, healthy and shame do not want to dance together for me. Mild, quickly dissipating shame I can relate to, non toxic shame I can also accept; a healthy soar throat just because it is not the bird flu just does not seem as a felicitous turn of phrase.
All in all I do agree with Jonine and you that the critical point of course is how we deal with shame. If shame can interrupt, expose or deflate us yet the non toxic version can moves us to take appropriate remedial action then it is the remedial action that is healthy.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Robert
Thanks for your perseverance with this difficult and important topic. I hope our discussion will help constellation practitioners be more aware of shame and more adept at dealing with it.
Your paraphrasing of my points shows me that you really get what I am saying about shame except for one nuance.
When you say:
The implication is that the ‘not working out’, social disconnection, disapproval is due to the speaker (self) and not the audience or a possible third factor.
That implication reflects an assumption of blaming.
This suggests an internal entanglement where some toxic shame is still locked in either at the pole of attack self or attack other.
The implication of "not working out" actually is that the shame has evolved out of the entire system. For the shame to stay healthy and not degenerate into toxic shame any looking needs to be done with the attitude of trying to find a good adaptive response rather than looking for someone to blame.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
On Monday, 21 March 2016, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and thank you for giving us plenty of helpful food for thought. On the one hand a skilful therapeutic approach to shame seems to be associated with the expression “healthy shame” and on the other hand healthy shame is defined “as being an emotion that takes the energy out of something that had your attention and interest but wasn't working out." or “a little shame can take the energy out of something that isn't really working" Accordingly healthy shame or a little shame is the signal that says it might be time to deflate and back off or we will lose some social acceptance or approval.
The implication is that the ‘not working out’, social disconnection, disapproval is due to the speaker (self) and not the audience or a possible third factor. This impingement on the self is where I find the attribute healthy a bit slippery.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi all
I apologise for the poor punctuation and grammar in the post i recently sent to the group addressed to Robert. for those who are interested I have edited it and reposted it here:
I once saw a skilled mindfulness practitioner who wanted clinical supervision combined with some therapy. He was suffering severe anxiety. When I suggested he sit with it, he insisted he was but I told him that I could tell he wasn't. We then sat with his anxiety together and I asked him to describe the sensations in his body. He described an unpleasant sensation in the chest that increased on the inbreath. When I asked if it decreased on the out breath or at any other time he said "no". I then asked if the sensation was getting stronger and stronger. Again he said "no". I pointed out those two answers were incompatible. If the sensation was getting stronger on the inbreath but not increasing overall then there must be a time it decreased. He then paid closer attention and noticed that the sensation did indeed decrease on the out breath. On further reflection he realised he wasn't really sitting with the anxiety but rather he was sitting with the anxiety - waiting for it to go. So he continued to be anxious about being anxious and remained stuck in a toxic spiral of anxiety. This insight was a turning point for him.
You talking about healthy shame as "a little shame is good for you because it will hold you back from doing bad things". This is similar to the experience of this therapist. It reveals a narrative that supports you reeentering toxic shame just as he was unintentionally feeding his anxiety . Instead I encourage you to think of healthy shame as being an emotion that takes the energy out of something that had your attention and interest but wasn't working out.
I have to tell you I have given therapy to a number of very empathic therapists, who have worked a lot with clients with toxic shame, who have been on the edge of burn out. These people also seem to have serious issues with vagueness. They are all seem to be stuck in subtle levels of shame themselves, which they can only overcome when they start to understand the healthy adaptive side of shame. Those that are able to do make this transition are very happy to rediscover a wonderful lightness of being.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Chris Walsh <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Robert
I once saw a skilled mindfulness practitioner who wanted clinical supervision combined with some therapy. He was suffering severe anxiety when I suggested he sit with it he insisted he was but I told him that I could tell he wasn't. We then sat with his anxiety together and I asked him to describe the sensations in his body. He described an unpleasant sensation in the chest that increased on the inbreath. When I asked if it decreased on the out breath or at any other time he said "no". I then asked if the sensation was getting stronger and stronger. Again he said "no". I pointed out those two answers were incompatible. If the sensation was getting stronger on the inbreath but not increasing overall then there must be a time it decreased.He then paid closer attention and noticed that the sensation did indeed decrease on the out breath. On further reflection he realised he wasn't really sitting with the anxiety but rather he was sitting with the anxiety waiting for it to go. So he continued to be anxious about being anxious and remained stuck in a toxic spiral of anxiety. The insight he got in this session was a turning point for him.
You talking about healthy shame as being "a little shame is good for you because it will hold you back from doing bad things" is similar to the experience of this therapist. It reveals a narrative that supports you reentering toxic shame. Instead I encourage you to think of healthy shame as being an emotion that takes the energy out of something that had your attention and interest but wasn't working out. I have to tell you I have given therapy to a number of very empathic therapists, who have worked a lot with clients with toxic shame, who have been on the edge of burn out. These people also seem to have serious issues with vagueness. These people are all stuck in subtle levels of shame themselves, which they can only overcome when they start to understand the healthy adaptive side of shame. Those that are able to do make this transition are very happy to rediscover a wonderful lightness of being.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and Everyone,
Thank you again for your continuing engagement on this subject of shame. To clarify things further I am in complete agreement with your proposed bioenergetic / body energetic strategy of dealing with shame. The issue for me is not that of fear or avoidance of confronting shame in a therapeutic context but that of considering / labelling shame in a general context as healthy on any level, that is to say “a little shame is good for you because it will hold you back from doing bad things”. Behaviour modification by restraint, that may leave the underlying dynamics in tact.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear Robert
Thank you for remaining open enough to be willing to explore this difficult issue. Hania rightly points out the difficulty with language but if you left it at that you would be seriously shortchanging yourself. The price that is paid for creating a rigid distinction between dampening / healthy shame and toxic shame is the same price someone pays who won't have anything to do with fire after having been caught in a bush fire. You miss out on a wonderful resource. In this case it is a resource that helps you to be adaptable and also helps you to develop genuine humility as apposed to that icky fake humility that happens when people try to be humble by an act of will.
I recently treated a soldier who had post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) after seeing a mate blown up by a mine in front of him. Consequently he had an irrational reaction of terror every time he saw a divot in the ground in Australia.Every time he aoided a divot and he did not get blown up his fear of divots was reinforced and his general level of anxiety would get worse. This is a classical reaction. After dealing with the flashbacks and number of the other problems with his PTSD I encouraged him to approach divots in the ground. Soon after he was in a playground with his child and became terrified when he saw a divot in the ground but he took a few deep breaths and approached that divot and kicked it around with his feet. He was then able to enjoy playing with his daughter for an hour after that.Fear of healthy shame is equivalent to fear of that divot. That leads to a self fulfilling prophesy whereby your averse reaction to healthy shame turns it into toxic shame. So you then live your life in fear of being shamed and in fear of shaming others. That's a life treading on eggshells. That's a life where your resilience is continuously in danger of being seriously undermined by a toxic shame attack.
I would therefore like to invite you to try an experiment, taking the lead from Cristina's posts. Next time you feel some shame just try practicing mindful awareness of your breath and let any thoughts that come up go past like clouds. You can label them as "just thoughts" if you like. Then allow yourself to focus on subtle sensations coursing through your body for at least 10 breaths. See if you can also notice the state of your mind - whether it feels clear or cloudy, calm or agitated. I invite you to get to know the unique signature that shame has in your body right now. I invite you to notice what happens to this sensation if you try to do nothing about it except to observe it and avoid complicating it with further story. I also invite you to notice how you reengage with the world after going through this process. If you go through this process whenever you encounter shame - either yours or someone else's, I guarantee that you will make extraordinary discoveries which will eventually include the healing power of shame.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Thank you Chris for your additional explanations and strategic clarity, and everyone for such a long and engaging discussion. I was wondering why do I feel a measure of unease about assigning any at all beneficial quality to shame, guilt or even regret. On further reflection my difficulty is that we could be attaching a positive attribute to something that is in fact only a restraint. With other words the positive behaviour modification is not the expression of intrinsic and authentic goodwill, generosity or kindness but internal pressure, fear or pain. Of course in the real world one should be grateful even for small mercies. One could also say that prisons are full of people who had no restraint. And a pragmatic person may say that it does not matter what colour the cat is as long as it catches mice. All true, yet for me there is something just a bit out of tune.
Best wishes to all,
Robert
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I agree Cristina that ultimately the most healthy way of dealing with shame is to sit with the body sensations. This avoids going into secondary emotions and getting stuck in a toxic repetitive cycle. This requires a very strong mindful awareness practice with a strongly developed prefrontal cortex. That is quite easily achievable for many of us with a little bit of training. However that is not so for people who have had highly traumatic childhoods. They will quickly become overwhelmed and slip into a destructive narrative, which then elicits lots of secondary emotions including more shame.. These people need a lot of empathic holding before they are capable of sitting with the physical sensations of shame as you describe.
Also I believe you are absolutely correct when you say that guilt is entirely different from shame. Guilt is a signal that tells us our belonging is threatened, just like pain is a signal that tells us when our body is threatened. Neither is strictly speaking an emotion, even though we do talk about both of them as if they are. The reason we get confused is because they both elicit strong emotions. Pain elicits distress and fear. Guilt elicits shame and anxiety. Pain is not distress or fear. Guilt is not shame or anxiety.
I do however understand Robert's need for a clearer linguistic distinction between toxic shame and healthy shame. The word shame is so loaded that it is almost impossible for many people to talk about it without going into shame and becoming foggy in their thinking. (Foggy thinking along with lowered gaze and loss of muscle tone are the hallmarks of all types of shame) That is why I like to use the word dampening which describes the process of shame without risking a toxic reaction in the reader. Nonetheless we do need to remain clear we are talking about the same process. Just because fire can cause devastating damage we don't feel the need to call the fire that we cook our food with something different. Ultimately, in the interest of clarity and efficient healing we need to recognise that toxic shame and healthy shame are essentially the same, just like a bush fire and the flame under your fry pan are essentially the same thing.
Cheers
Chris
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:38 PM, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In my experience, the most liberating thing to do is to learn to feel and manage the affect of shame, no matter how toxic, and discharge it through the body, as in trauma resolution. Also there is a huge difference between shame and guilt. In guilt, the Self is in integrity and has made a mistake, in shame, the entire Self is Bad. Cristina
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 9:34 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
“healthy dealing with shame means to face it and acknowledge it. It means letting go of the toxic avoidance reactions of attacking other, attacking self, avoiding other or avoiding self. These just bind you deeper into toxic shame. The empathic therapist can be very helpful in this process. It also means embracing the reparative aspect of healthy shame.”
Hi Chris and All,
Indeed we are having a good look at this shame issue. Most of your reflections make good sense to me. The only point where I would welcome a little clarification is that of ‘healthy shame”. Feeling regret, feeling that one has made a mistake, not wishing to repeat mistakes or cause hurt – these are clear motives. Considering how close they are and how easy it is to turn “healthy” shame into toxic shame, is using the expression “healthy shame” a good idea? My fundamental concern is that somehow this easy mix up will obscure the self dividing and controlling potential of shame.
More recently Brené Brown has sharpened the focus on these very different yet easily confused concepts by re-labelling them in ways that feel not only more accurate but much less murky and open to interpretation/confusion. What has been described as toxic shame is what Brown merely calls shame. And she calls healthy shame what it actually is, which is guilt. Brown also makes it clear that feeling guilty can absolutely be a healthy thing, as this emotion can and often does lead to positive behaviour change.
Best wishes,
Robert
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi all
What a wonderful and rich conversation!
The Western Shame Guilt literature is really messed up by the fact that almost no thought is given to definitions and the authors assume we all understand the same things by these words. Clearly we don't. This is particularly so in the shame culture versus guilt culture literature.
It is useful to start with Bert Hellinger's revolutionary way of thinking about guilt. Instead of seeing the feeling of guilt as being about legally or morally right or wrong he reconceptualised guilt as something that arises when our belonging is threatened. Once he gave examples it made complete sense and this definition was liberating!
So guilt arises when belonging is threatened much the same as pain arises when our physical body is under attack. Both of these are warning signals . They both have emotions associated with them but they are not really emotions or affects in and of themselves. Guilt elicits the emotions of anxiety and shame just as pain elicits the emotions of distress and fear. So dividing cultures into shame cultures and guilt cultures never really made sense.They are chalk and cheese. I think this is why the idea never really caught on with the general public.
What does make sense is that there are shame affirming and shame denying cultures, with the West falling into the latter. In either culture, shame can be misused to bully people into submission. That then fits with Fung seeing shame as equivalent to guilt in the Eastern cultures. Shame is simply more palpable as the emotional response to guilt than it is in the West where people are more tuned in to the anxiety response.
I agree that honour is the opposite of toxic shame. In the west pride is more seen as the opposite of shame. That difference is because honour, as Fung describes it, refers to relationships, whereas pride is more of an individualistic notion.
Fung gives us the clue that healthy dealing with shame means to face it and acknowledge it. It means letting go of the toxic avoidance reactions of attacking other, attacking self, avoiding other or avoiding self. These just bind you deeper into toxic shame. The empathic therapist can be very helpful in this process. It also means embracing the reparative aspect of healthy shame. Without this the person who has experienced toxic shame will always be prone to going back into toxic shame and they will never be truly resilient. To help with the process of embracing healthy shame, a clear minded therapist can be very helpful. A therapist can only be empathic enough and clear minded enough to help others in this way, if they have already cleared their own toxic shame, and learnt to embrace dampening/healthy shame.If you have done that then you will have the capacity to deal elegantly with these issues when they arise in constellations.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:10 AM, lap fung cheng ahfung@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear Chris, and all,
As a facilitator from oriental culture, I would like to add something to Shame topic.
Oriental culture is usually labeled as shame culture, contrasting to western guilt culture by academics.
My own observation for our culture:
1. Shame is equivalent to guilt from the perspective of conscience. Usually the expression is shame-guilt complex, and that’s actually the literal translation in our language.
2. Shame is usually paired up with Honour. e.g. if one’s deed is considered “wrong” or deviated from common understanding of society, he/she may be dishonoring his/her family and ancestors. If one’s deed is contributing to prosperity of a group, he/she may be considered honoring his/her family and ancestors.
3. Both victims and perpetrators may also experience shame feeling. Whether shame is healthy or not may depend on if their attitude is facing or avoiding. Victims experience shame of not taking their own responsibility, and lead to rectifying action, this is healthy. Victims feel shame and hide away further from crowd (e.g. being raped, being homosexual etc.), it is unhealthy. Perpetrators experience shame and understand their harm to other, then they bow to victims, this is healthy. Perpetrators experience shame, try to deny the truth, and turn away, this is unhealthy.
Cheers.
Fung
在 2016年3月16日，上午5:39，'Jonine Lee Gabay' satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 写道：
Dear Chris, Hania and others
Zaquie I agree with you on the value of Bradshaws work and its a great discussion helpful for us all. My understanding of the two types of Shame came from study and work with John Bradshaw and his non shaming therapeutic model for Innerchild work. His work in ‘Healing the Shame that Binds Us’ is so valuable for understanding the entanglements and enmeshments that happen as a consequence of shaming. While I love the work of Brene Brown his work takes a deeper look at the darker aspects of shame.
Understanding the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame can at times be challenging and so subtle, shame based people cover shame with shameless shaming disguised in many ways and often as ‘love and caring’(often completely unconscious of this) When shame is toxic, it is an excruciatingly painful experience of unexpected exposure, as being seen as flawed and defective, less than. It divides us from ourselves and from others and any possibility of true connection and intimacy in relationship, when it is triggered it sets off many of the responses you mentioned Chris.
Everyone needs a sense of shame, but no one needs to feel ashamed. ―Frederick Nietzsche
The psychologist Erik Erikson talks about the psychosocial task during the developmental stage of counter dependence being to strike a balance between autonomy and shame and doubt, the full affect of shame experienced as limits put on child’s need to separate and do things his or her own way. With healthy caregivers this is encouraged with boundaries and limits and mistakes are corrected in a loving caring way and reassurance given that the behaviour isn’t ok, shame based parents with their own experience of feeling flawed and defective will treat the child with disdain not separating the behaviour from the child.
“Shame is a natural feeling that, when allowed to function well, monitors a person's sense of excitement or pleasure. Healthy shame is an emotion that teaches us about our limits. Like all emotions, shame moves us to get our basic needs met. But when the feeling of shame is violated by a coercive and perfectionistic religion and culture―especially by shame-based source figures ―it becomes an all-embracing identity.”
A person with internalized shame (toxic) believes he is inherently flawed, inferior and defective. Such a feeling is so painful that defending scripts (or strategies) are developed to cover it up. These scripts are the roots of violence, criminality, war and all forms of addiction.” (Bradshaw, Healing the Shame that binds us, more than 25 yrs ago references Sylvan Thomkins model)
Bradshaw also shares below from the earliest known writing on shame.
The earliest treatise on shame was written by Annnibale Pocaterra, born in 1562. Awareness of Pocaterra's book, Two Dialogues on Shame, came from Donald Nathanson's comprehensive book Shame and Pride. According to Nathanson, Pocaterra wrote his book on shame at age thirty. His book was the only scholarly work on shame until Darwin wrote about it three hundred years later. Pocaterra died a few months after publishing his book. (see Shame and Pride, pages 443–445).
In the beginning of his book, Pocaterra tells us that 'in the end shame is a good thing, a part of everyday existence.' Shame, according to Pocaterra, makes us timorous, humble and contrite and causes outrage against the self.
When we are attacked by shame, Pocaterra says we 'would like nothing better than to run and hide from the eyes of the world.' He also describes shame as the 'fear of infamy,' which can lead a person to attack his enemy with passion. Shame is thus capable of both cowardice and bravery. Long before Silvan Tomkins's treatise on shame, Pocaterra posited that our emotions are innate and that 'they are only good or evil as the end to which they are used.' There is an innate and a learned component to all emotion. 'Therefore,' Pocaterra writes, 'there must be two shames, one natural and free from awareness and the other acquired.'
Pocaterra understood shame to be our teacher. He thought the shame of children was like a seed that will become a small plant in youth and leads to virtue at maturity. Pocaterra looked at blushing as the external sign of shame and believed that blushing was both the recognition of having made a mistake as well as the desire to make amends. Three hundred years later Darwin would posit blushing as that which distinguishes us from all other animals. Darwin knew that the mother of the blush was shame. For Darwin, shame defines our essential humanity. Silvan Tomkins views shame as an innate feeling that limits our experience of interest, curiosity and pleasure.
We could discuss this topic for a year and never exhausted its value! Thanks everyone, and always your good questions Vinay
Jonine
Jonine Lee Gabay
Mindfulness based Breathwork Therapy I Family Constellations I Counselling I Coaching I NLP
M 0402 067 024 <tel:0402%20067%20024> I E <mailto:jonine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> jonine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I W <http://www.coreconnectiontrainings.com/> www.coreconnectiontrainings.com
"Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my ancestors are behind me.
Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the result of the love of thousands.""Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my ancestors are behind me. Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the result of the love of thousands."
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2016 4:12 AM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Dear Hania and all,
I entirely agree with Hania about shame. Id like to add that I find one of the greatest pleasure of the “ predator” is to keep the other one “ small” and Full of shame. Small.
Even though the mistake may be small…but the tendency is to dominate the other one thru “ shame”. You will be punished…and continue to be punished…
Pay your errors…
It is easy to see the “ predator” in us. If we have a tendency to keep the other one “ small” and “ paying for his mistakes” even the small ones. We feel “ on top” and the other “ submissive”
Whatever “ the error” .
Shame is instilled.
One of the greatest book on shame I have ever read is “ Healing the Shame that Binds You” by John Bradshaw and that helped me a lot.
Zaquie C Meredith, Sao Paulo, Brazil
<http://www.zaquie.com/> www.zaquie.com
<mailto:zaquie@xxxxxxxxxx> zaquie@xxxxxxxxxx
(011) 979978808 (Vivo)
<http://www.facebook/com/zaquie.meredith> www.facebook/com/zaquie.meredith
<http://linkedin.com/in/zaquie> Linkedin.com/in/zaquie
youtube:zaquiemeredith
twitter:zaquiemeredith
From: < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of "Leslie Nipps <mailto:lnipps@xxxxxxxxx> lnipps@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 1:38 PM
To: Constellation Talk < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
I just got a great deal out of the dialogue between Hania and Chris, so thank you! I can feel the systemic connection between shame and what Hania is calling humility. Can’t we all remember a representation in which we were resisting, resisting shame, and then we let go, and there is was, the bliss of humility in its place? So, they are surely connected. Whether more like the way Hania describes it, or as Chris describes it (dampening as a lesser form of shame—connected to humility perhaps?), I think we can all feel the systemic desires hidden in shame, and how it can be a gift if we look for them.
Having said all that, there is a great difference between all this and using shaming systematically with a client - I think we have two different conversations overlapping here (one about the systemics of shame, and one about using shame as a facilitator tool). I can say that systemically, the role of shaming the client at a recent Hellinger event was less about the client per se, and more about influencing the larger group. One never knew if the next client was going to be the love-bombed one, or the shamed one. And it led to lots of interesting compliance behaviors from both clients and the rest of the gathering. People who don’t see it as shaming will argue vociferously that it’s very good for the client who wasn’t “ready” (or some such). Even considering that it might mean something different can be very upsetting for people who have a lot of emotional well-being caught up in the “goodness” of the leader. I think it’s more about a leader and their followers, than it is about an attempt at a meaningful client intervention.
Peace, Leslie
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
<http://www.leslienipps.com/> www.leslienipps.com
Co-Director, 2015 North American Systemic Constellations Conference in San Diego on November 12-15.
Visit <http://constellateus.com/conference2015> ConstellateUs.com/conference2015 for more information
On Mar 15, 2016, at 6:35 AM, Hania Gorski <mailto:haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx> haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and All,
I would like to bring the point, that there are different concepts of shame, and different definitions.
Chris, I respectfully disagree with you - I see that it's a kind of your definition, or interpretation of shame, as looking at "adaptive" and "healthy" function of shame.
I see the topic you're describing - as a misconstruction of mixing shame with humbleness.
The ritual of bowing has nothing in common with shame and it's actually opposite - it's gentle, humble respect and acknowledgement of being small (yes, shrinking from being too big, a very healthy process). That is description of being humble, not shamed.
Humbleness is healthy and adaptive, and facilitates deep growth.
Shame - in my opinion, and my therapeutic/facilitator experience - is never a good motivator as it's impossible to bring any real goodness by imposing negativity, like cleaning a floor with a dirty cloth.
It always brings a sense of isolation, alienation, separation, not connection.
Shame stands next to fear and guilt and rejection, and it was used along with all these negative "tools" as an effective social control/power weapon (sometimes deadly) in the history of human kind, and it is still used. It was/is also widely used in raising children to make them obedient and disconnected from themselves in order to serve adult society purposes.
Shame is also inseparable from family "dirty" secrets, sexual abuse trauma, and domestic violence.
Shame is a toxic tool of domination in relationships, separating people from each other, and from Love, therefore it's against Orders of Love. That's my definition.
No surprise that we deal with shame in constellation work; from the beginning, in a process of offering clients constellation, we see facets of shame in family system - visible even in our clients' resistance to work in a group setting.
Groups/constellation workshops are potential theatres of shame and retraumatisation, so it is so extremely important for the facilitator to be aware of these dynamics, and to not step into/re-create the shame space. The Knowing Field is also a potential mining field.
Thanks Robert for posting the link to Vivien Broughton article about ethics in constellation facilitation - what she listed as good qualities of a facilitator, emphasises importance of navigating through the constellation process in such way that doesn't deepen shame and doesn't retraumatise clients (and representatives).
I'd like to respond also to the beginning of this thread when someone asked about experiences with shame in constellations.
I had a very interesting and learning experience as a representative; I was representing a father of the client; this father was a son of a man who was caught up as a paedophile.
While I was standing in my representative role, I've experienced few feelings and body sensations/movements. One of the leading feelings was an enormous shame, felt as unforgivable guilt/shame and alienation; my body was heavy under these feelings, like a lifeless heavy bag, and my eyes were glued to the floor.
Unfortunately, the facilitator didn't ask for my report as a representative for a long time (even if the main enquiry from the client was about her relationship with her father whom I was representing).
The facilitator was stating aloud that the father is looking at dead, and bringing representative for dead. Later on, when it was not leading anywhere, I was asked for the report, and I stated my feelings of shame (with few others). When the shame was brought and acknowledged, a process of healing begun, and gradually I could see my daughter. That was bringing a further healing to the daughter.
I'd like to respond also to someone mentioning prof. Brene Brown, a researcher of vulnerability and shame. I love her concepts and presentations, she brings a lot of new air to understanding of social dynamics of shame and vulnerability in society and culture. She clearly distinguishes shame from humbleness, and her research proves that shame damages and alienates people. Her antidote to shame - in short - is courage and authenticity, which implies humbleness and acceptance of our imperfections.
Her findings are great in a broad social context as Brene Brown focuses mainly on social/cultural/gender context of shame (she is a professor of social work at Texas University).
She calls herself a shame researcher, but unfortunately she doesn't go to shame issues in a trauma/family system context.
That area of shame still awaits to be explored fully, as some of B.B. proposals of resolving shame are not really helpful for traumatised clients who are deeply buried in shame.
I think that shame is so important and rich topic, and there are so interesting cultural specifics regarding reasons and expressions of shame. We need to be aware of these cross-cultural subtleties.
I hope to hear more from our forum members.
Best regards
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Hania Gorski, Melbourne
Psychologist, Relationship Coach, Systemic Therapist
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The world, I’ve come to think, is like the surface of a frozen lake. We walk along, we slip, we try to keep our balance and not to fall. One day, there’s a crack, and so we learn that underneath us — is an unimaginable depth. James Joyce
On 15 March 2016 at 22:16, 'Cristina Casanova' <mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Learning to stay with the affect of shame in the body, and discharging the emotion without reacting, finding a creative answers gives me an immense freedom to be.
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 4:10 AM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Thanks for that Cristina
You have given us Tomkins description of what elicits the affect of shame and I think it is a great starting point.
If as constellation practitioners we understood affect/ emotions better we could do a much better job.
Personally I do have some problems with Tomkins theory. Firstly the word shame is far too strong for most people and they automatically equate it with a toxic form of shame where it spirals out of control in much the same way as anxiety can when it becomes panic. So "shame" is a difficult word. A better word for the mild version of that feeling is dampening as in "His excitement was dampened." We can intuitively tell that this is accurate because when we say someone is shameless we mean they won't let go of their excitement, they won't admit they have made a mistake.
With the word dampening, it is now much more possible to see the adaptive value of shame. Then it is much more possible to have a sensible discussion. It is then possible to see there is a mild version of shame called dampening which has a lot of qualities that are identical to the severe form called shame or humiliation. Both slow us down physically and cognitively. Dampening helps us to step back and take stock and then act more skillfully. Shame can paralyse us.
Despite this shame feels quite different to dampening just as panic feels quite different to mild anxiety. The way to deal with panic is to develop a friendly relationship with anxiety. The way to deal with shame is to develop a friendly relationship with dampening.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425> +61 (0)3 9420 1425
<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/> www.cwalsh.com.au
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, 'Cristina Casanova' <mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Shame is an affect wired into the nervous system. It happens when joy and interest are interrupted and it is felt by people in different degrees.
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 8:42 PM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Hi Chris,
I am not so sure about “shameless is untrustworthy”. The colloquial use of shameless is perhaps someone who will not hold back in the face of possible disapproval or rejection. That may not make them unloving and therefore untrustworthy.
Buddhism not with standing, could it be that shame is an unequivocal sign of trauma? Would the healthy, happy and wise still need the intense fear of shame or self rejection as an impulse control mechanism? Shall we throw out that baby, bathwater and all?
Best wishes,
Robert
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Chris Walsh <mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Cristina
Sylvan Tomkins and his followers including Donald Nathanson are the only people I know who define shame in a meaningful way when they talk about it. Without a definition much of the conversation about shame ends up being a series of misunderstandings where people are talking cross purposes.
Tomkins describes shame as being a flattening emotion (or affect to be precise) that makes us lose energy, makes us clumsy and stops us from thinking clearly. Despite that, like all of our emotions, it has adaptive value. It dampens our excitement when it is misdirected. There is a linguistic clue to that when we look at the word "shameless".
Someone who is shameless is untrustworthy because they don't pay any attention to social constraints. Shame is important for socialisation and fitting into groups. Of course it can be misused to beat people into shape but let's not commit the error of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is interesting that Steve who is working with Asian cultures raised this topic. Asian cultures are less individualistic and prioritise collective wellbeing. As such they treat shaming more delicately. They are very aware of it in the concept of "face". Saving face is extremely important for the Chinese. Causing someone to lose face is a very serious matter.
Unfortunately we in the West have gone from ignoring shame to demonising it - especially in therapeutic circles. As far as I am concerned that is still a very primitive response. Shame needs to be integrated, to be given a place and included and to be valued as an adaptive emotion. Only then can we have a healthy relationship with shame - Sounds like a constellation doesn't it!
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425> +61 (0)3 9420 1425
<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/> www.cwalsh.com.au
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Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
