Liebe Mara,
kann man so wegschicken. Nach Deiner Rückkehr reden wir noch mal darüber, wie
man den Behandlungsplan straffen kann, damit sich die Punkte 1 - 5 oder 6
ständig rituell wiederholen.
Herzliche Grüße, und falls wir uns nicht mehr sehen, eine schöne Zeit in Peru.
Noch eine Sache zur Abrechnung. Mach bitte zwei getrennte Abrechnungen, eine
über die Tests, die Du im Rahmend es Praktikums gemacht hast, die andere über
die anderen Leistungen bei den Patienten, die zu Behandlung unter Supervision
zählen. Wenn Du Tests mit Deinen Patienten gemacht hast, kannst Du sie diesem
Teil zuschlagen.
Herzliche Grüße
Heinrich Breuer
Hültzstraße 21
50933 Köln
0221-940 527 12
hthbreuer@xxxxxxxxxxx
www.hypnosys.de
Am 22.03.2016 um 01:06 schrieb Hania Gorski haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
Hi Chris, Robert, Jonine and All,
"Healthy relationship with shame" - it feels to me much better than "healthy
shame".
Robert, you point not only to negative connotation of shame but also how
important is to follow the gut feeling.
Jonine, good on you!
Warmly
Hania
On 22 Mar 2016 8:35 am, "Harrison Snow teambuilder@xxxxxxx
<mailto:teambuilder@xxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi All,
I must admit I am more with Robert on this….happy to sit quietly and give
space to any discomfort
since I feel I am in good company.
My take on all this is there is shame – a part of our human make up we all
have although
the shaming triggers will differ in different cultures.
We can have a healthy reaction or response in dealing with shame especially
if we have a healthy sense of self.
We can also have an unhealthy reaction which is likely if our sense of self
was wounded by shame
and did not recover at an early age.
Cheers
Harrison Snow
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: 'Jonine Lee Gabay' satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:11 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Shame - corrected post
Dear Robert,
I’m not sure that mild and non toxic shame does present in the waiting room,
as Cristina says we allow it to pass through us and move forward without any
debilitating contraction after whatever adjustment might have been necessary,
so its not problematic quite the contrary a gift of insight and awareness
guiding actions.
But I can definitely go with your distinction of acknowledging that the
healthy Vs toxic description can be attached to the responses and that then
sets up even more that I am curious about discussing but leave for now
Grateful to my own healing of intellectual shame that might in the past have
had me contract from such a discussion, I have a little dance of delight in
my heart just participating thanks to all and thanks Chris your discussion
helped me get clearer
Jonine
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Monday, 21 March 2016 9:05 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame - corrected post
Hi Chris, Jonine and All,
Indeed you are right in noting the assumption of blame as the underlying
dynamic in shame. However without blame can we really talk about shame? If
the self is not rebuked by the self what is behind the dampening emotional
discomfort? Even mild embarrassment seems to indicate an emotional charge.
If shame is mild, quickly dissipating and non toxic why would it even present
in the waiting room?
No matter how I am turning it, healthy and shame do not want to dance
together for me. Mild, quickly dissipating shame I can relate to, non toxic
shame I can also accept; a healthy soar throat just because it is not the
bird flu just does not seem as a felicitous turn of phrase.
All in all I do agree with Jonine and you that the critical point of course
is how we deal with shame. If shame can interrupt, expose or deflate us yet
the non toxic version can moves us to take appropriate remedial action then
it is the remedial action that is healthy.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Robert
Thanks for your perseverance with this difficult and important topic. I hope
our discussion will help constellation practitioners be more aware of shame
and more adept at dealing with it.
Your paraphrasing of my points shows me that you really get what I am saying
about shame except for one nuance.
When you say:
The implication is that the ‘not working out’, social disconnection,
disapproval is due to the speaker (self) and not the audience or a possible
third factor.
That implication reflects an assumption of blaming.
This suggests an internal entanglement where some toxic shame is still locked
in either at the pole of attack self or attack other.
The implication of "not working out" actually is that the shame has evolved
out of the entire system. For the shame to stay healthy and not degenerate
into toxic shame any looking needs to be done with the attitude of trying to
find a good adaptive response rather than looking for someone to blame.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
On Monday, 21 March 2016, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:erebees@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Chris and thank you for giving us plenty of helpful food for thought. On
the one hand a skilful therapeutic approach to shame seems to be associated
with the expression “healthy shame” and on the other hand healthy shame is
defined “as being an emotion that takes the energy out of something that had
your attention and interest but wasn't working out." or “a little shame can
take the energy out of something that isn't really working" Accordingly
healthy shame or a little shame is the signal that says it might be time to
deflate and back off or we will lose some social acceptance or approval.
The implication is that the ‘not working out’, social disconnection,
disapproval is due to the speaker (self) and not the audience or a possible
third factor. This impingement on the self is where I find the attribute
healthy a bit slippery.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi all
I apologise for the poor punctuation and grammar in the post i recently sent
to the group addressed to Robert. for those who are interested I have edited
it and reposted it here:
I once saw a skilled mindfulness practitioner who wanted clinical supervision
combined with some therapy. He was suffering severe anxiety. When I
suggested he sit with it, he insisted he was but I told him that I could tell
he wasn't. We then sat with his anxiety together and I asked him to describe
the sensations in his body. He described an unpleasant sensation in the chest
that increased on the inbreath. When I asked if it decreased on the out
breath or at any other time he said "no". I then asked if the sensation was
getting stronger and stronger. Again he said "no". I pointed out those two
answers were incompatible. If the sensation was getting stronger on the
inbreath but not increasing overall then there must be a time it decreased.
He then paid closer attention and noticed that the sensation did indeed
decrease on the out breath. On further reflection he realised he wasn't
really sitting with the anxiety but rather he was sitting with the anxiety -
waiting for it to go. So he continued to be anxious about being anxious and
remained stuck in a toxic spiral of anxiety. This insight was a turning point
for him.
You talking about healthy shame as "a little shame is good for you because it
will hold you back from doing bad things". This is similar to the
experience of this therapist. It reveals a narrative that supports you
reeentering toxic shame just as he was unintentionally feeding his anxiety .
Instead I encourage you to think of healthy shame as being an emotion that
takes the energy out of something that had your attention and interest but
wasn't working out.
I have to tell you I have given therapy to a number of very empathic
therapists, who have worked a lot with clients with toxic shame, who have
been on the edge of burn out. These people also seem to have serious issues
with vagueness. They are all seem to be stuck in subtle levels of shame
themselves, which they can only overcome when they start to understand the
healthy adaptive side of shame. Those that are able to do make this
transition are very happy to rediscover a wonderful lightness of being.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Chris Walsh <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Robert
I once saw a skilled mindfulness practitioner who wanted clinical supervision
combined with some therapy. He was suffering severe anxiety when I suggested
he sit with it he insisted he was but I told him that I could tell he wasn't.
We then sat with his anxiety together and I asked him to describe the
sensations in his body. He described an unpleasant sensation in the chest
that increased on the inbreath. When I asked if it decreased on the out
breath or at any other time he said "no". I then asked if the sensation was
getting stronger and stronger. Again he said "no". I pointed out those two
answers were incompatible. If the sensation was getting stronger on the
inbreath but not increasing overall then there must be a time it
decreased.He then paid closer attention and noticed that the sensation did
indeed decrease on the out breath. On further reflection he realised he
wasn't really sitting with the anxiety but rather he was sitting with the
anxiety waiting for it to go. So he continued to be anxious about being
anxious and remained stuck in a toxic spiral of anxiety. The insight he got
in this session was a turning point for him.
You talking about healthy shame as being "a little shame is good for you
because it will hold you back from doing bad things" is similar to the
experience of this therapist. It reveals a narrative that supports you
reentering toxic shame. Instead I encourage you to think of healthy shame as
being an emotion that takes the energy out of something that had your
attention and interest but wasn't working out. I have to tell you I have
given therapy to a number of very empathic therapists, who have worked a lot
with clients with toxic shame, who have been on the edge of burn out. These
people also seem to have serious issues with vagueness. These people are all
stuck in subtle levels of shame themselves, which they can only overcome when
they start to understand the healthy adaptive side of shame. Those that are
able to do make this transition are very happy to rediscover a wonderful
lightness of being.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:erebees@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Chris and Everyone,
Thank you again for your continuing engagement on this subject of shame. To
clarify things further I am in complete agreement with your proposed
bioenergetic / body energetic strategy of dealing with shame. The issue for
me is not that of fear or avoidance of confronting shame in a therapeutic
context but that of considering / labelling shame in a general context as
healthy on any level, that is to say “a little shame is good for you because
it will hold you back from doing bad things”. Behaviour modification by
restraint, that may leave the underlying dynamics in tact.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Dear Robert
Thank you for remaining open enough to be willing to explore this difficult
issue. Hania rightly points out the difficulty with language but if you left
it at that you would be seriously shortchanging yourself. The price that is
paid for creating a rigid distinction between dampening / healthy shame and
toxic shame is the same price someone pays who won't have anything to do with
fire after having been caught in a bush fire. You miss out on a wonderful
resource. In this case it is a resource that helps you to be adaptable and
also helps you to develop genuine humility as apposed to that icky fake
humility that happens when people try to be humble by an act of will.
I recently treated a soldier who had post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)
after seeing a mate blown up by a mine in front of him. Consequently he had
an irrational reaction of terror every time he saw a divot in the ground in
Australia.Every time he aoided a divot and he did not get blown up his fear
of divots was reinforced and his general level of anxiety would get worse.
This is a classical reaction. After dealing with the flashbacks and number of
the other problems with his PTSD I encouraged him to approach divots in the
ground. Soon after he was in a playground with his child and became terrified
when he saw a divot in the ground but he took a few deep breaths and
approached that divot and kicked it around with his feet. He was then able to
enjoy playing with his daughter for an hour after that.Fear of healthy shame
is equivalent to fear of that divot. That leads to a self fulfilling
prophesy whereby your averse reaction to healthy shame turns it into toxic
shame. So you then live your life in fear of being shamed and in fear of
shaming others. That's a life treading on eggshells. That's a life where your
resilience is continuously in danger of being seriously undermined by a toxic
shame attack.
I would therefore like to invite you to try an experiment, taking the lead
from Cristina's posts. Next time you feel some shame just try practicing
mindful awareness of your breath and let any thoughts that come up go past
like clouds. You can label them as "just thoughts" if you like. Then allow
yourself to focus on subtle sensations coursing through your body for at
least 10 breaths. See if you can also notice the state of your mind -
whether it feels clear or cloudy, calm or agitated. I invite you to get to
know the unique signature that shame has in your body right now. I invite you
to notice what happens to this sensation if you try to do nothing about it
except to observe it and avoid complicating it with further story. I also
invite you to notice how you reengage with the world after going through this
process. If you go through this process whenever you encounter shame - either
yours or someone else's, I guarantee that you will make extraordinary
discoveries which will eventually include the healing power of shame.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:erebees@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Thank you Chris for your additional explanations and strategic clarity, and
everyone for such a long and engaging discussion. I was wondering why do I
feel a measure of unease about assigning any at all beneficial quality to
shame, guilt or even regret. On further reflection my difficulty is that we
could be attaching a positive attribute to something that is in fact only a
restraint. With other words the positive behaviour modification is not the
expression of intrinsic and authentic goodwill, generosity or kindness but
internal pressure, fear or pain. Of course in the real world one should be
grateful even for small mercies. One could also say that prisons are full of
people who had no restraint. And a pragmatic person may say that it does not
matter what colour the cat is as long as it catches mice. All true, yet for
me there is something just a bit out of tune.
Best wishes to all,
Robert
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I agree Cristina that ultimately the most healthy way of dealing with shame
is to sit with the body sensations. This avoids going into secondary emotions
and getting stuck in a toxic repetitive cycle. This requires a very strong
mindful awareness practice with a strongly developed prefrontal cortex. That
is quite easily achievable for many of us with a little bit of training.
However that is not so for people who have had highly traumatic childhoods.
They will quickly become overwhelmed and slip into a destructive narrative,
which then elicits lots of secondary emotions including more shame.. These
people need a lot of empathic holding before they are capable of sitting with
the physical sensations of shame as you describe.
Also I believe you are absolutely correct when you say that guilt is entirely
different from shame. Guilt is a signal that tells us our belonging is
threatened, just like pain is a signal that tells us when our body is
threatened. Neither is strictly speaking an emotion, even though we do talk
about both of them as if they are. The reason we get confused is because they
both elicit strong emotions. Pain elicits distress and fear. Guilt elicits
shame and anxiety. Pain is not distress or fear. Guilt is not shame or
anxiety.
I do however understand Robert's need for a clearer linguistic distinction
between toxic shame and healthy shame. The word shame is so loaded that it is
almost impossible for many people to talk about it without going into shame
and becoming foggy in their thinking. (Foggy thinking along with lowered gaze
and loss of muscle tone are the hallmarks of all types of shame) That is why
I like to use the word dampening which describes the process of shame without
risking a toxic reaction in the reader. Nonetheless we do need to remain
clear we are talking about the same process. Just because fire can cause
devastating damage we don't feel the need to call the fire that we cook our
food with something different. Ultimately, in the interest of clarity and
efficient healing we need to recognise that toxic shame and healthy shame are
essentially the same, just like a bush fire and the flame under your fry pan
are essentially the same thing.
Cheers
Chris
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:38 PM, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
In my experience, the most liberating thing to do is to learn to feel and
manage the affect of shame, no matter how toxic, and discharge it through the
body, as in trauma resolution. Also there is a huge difference between shame
and guilt. In guilt, the Self is in integrity and has made a mistake, in
shame, the entire Self is Bad. Cristina
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 9:34 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
“healthy dealing with shame means to face it and acknowledge it. It means
letting go of the toxic avoidance reactions of attacking other, attacking
self, avoiding other or avoiding self. These just bind you deeper into toxic
shame. The empathic therapist can be very helpful in this process. It also
means embracing the reparative aspect of healthy shame.”
Hi Chris and All,
Indeed we are having a good look at this shame issue. Most of your
reflections make good sense to me. The only point where I would welcome a
little clarification is that of ‘healthy shame”. Feeling regret, feeling that
one has made a mistake, not wishing to repeat mistakes or cause hurt – these
are clear motives. Considering how close they are and how easy it is to turn
“healthy” shame into toxic shame, is using the expression “healthy shame” a
good idea? My fundamental concern is that somehow this easy mix up will
obscure the self dividing and controlling potential of shame.
More recently Brené Brown has sharpened the focus on these very different yet
easily confused concepts by re-labelling them in ways that feel not only more
accurate but much less murky and open to interpretation/confusion. What has
been described as toxic shame is what Brown merely calls shame. And she calls
healthy shame what it actually is, which is guilt. Brown also makes it clear
that feeling guilty can absolutely be a healthy thing, as this emotion can
and often does lead to positive behaviour change.
Best wishes,
Robert
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi all
What a wonderful and rich conversation!
The Western Shame Guilt literature is really messed up by the fact that
almost no thought is given to definitions and the authors assume we all
understand the same things by these words. Clearly we don't. This is
particularly so in the shame culture versus guilt culture literature.
It is useful to start with Bert Hellinger's revolutionary way of thinking
about guilt. Instead of seeing the feeling of guilt as being about legally or
morally right or wrong he reconceptualised guilt as something that arises
when our belonging is threatened. Once he gave examples it made complete
sense and this definition was liberating!
So guilt arises when belonging is threatened much the same as pain arises
when our physical body is under attack. Both of these are warning signals .
They both have emotions associated with them but they are not really emotions
or affects in and of themselves. Guilt elicits the emotions of anxiety and
shame just as pain elicits the emotions of distress and fear. So dividing
cultures into shame cultures and guilt cultures never really made sense.They
are chalk and cheese. I think this is why the idea never really caught on
with the general public.
What does make sense is that there are shame affirming and shame denying
cultures, with the West falling into the latter. In either culture, shame can
be misused to bully people into submission. That then fits with Fung seeing
shame as equivalent to guilt in the Eastern cultures. Shame is simply more
palpable as the emotional response to guilt than it is in the West where
people are more tuned in to the anxiety response.
I agree that honour is the opposite of toxic shame. In the west pride is more
seen as the opposite of shame. That difference is because honour, as Fung
describes it, refers to relationships, whereas pride is more of an
individualistic notion.
Fung gives us the clue that healthy dealing with shame means to face it and
acknowledge it. It means letting go of the toxic avoidance reactions of
attacking other, attacking self, avoiding other or avoiding self. These just
bind you deeper into toxic shame. The empathic therapist can be very helpful
in this process. It also means embracing the reparative aspect of healthy
shame. Without this the person who has experienced toxic shame will always be
prone to going back into toxic shame and they will never be truly resilient.
To help with the process of embracing healthy shame, a clear minded therapist
can be very helpful. A therapist can only be empathic enough and clear minded
enough to help others in this way, if they have already cleared their own
toxic shame, and learnt to embrace dampening/healthy shame.If you have done
that then you will have the capacity to deal elegantly with these issues when
they arise in constellations.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%209420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:10 AM, lap fung cheng ahfung@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ahfung@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Dear Chris, and all,
As a facilitator from oriental culture, I would like to add something to
Shame topic.
Oriental culture is usually labeled as shame culture, contrasting to western
guilt culture by academics.
My own observation for our culture:
1. Shame is equivalent to guilt from the perspective of conscience. Usually
the expression is shame-guilt complex, and that’s actually the literal
translation in our language.
2. Shame is usually paired up with Honour. e.g. if one’s deed is considered
“wrong” or deviated from common understanding of society, he/she may be
dishonoring his/her family and ancestors. If one’s deed is contributing to
prosperity of a group, he/she may be considered honoring his/her family and
ancestors.
3. Both victims and perpetrators may also experience shame feeling. Whether
shame is healthy or not may depend on if their attitude is facing or
avoiding. Victims experience shame of not taking their own responsibility,
and lead to rectifying action, this is healthy. Victims feel shame and hide
away further from crowd (e.g. being raped, being homosexual etc.), it is
unhealthy. Perpetrators experience shame and understand their harm to other,
then they bow to victims, this is healthy. Perpetrators experience shame, try
to deny the truth, and turn away, this is unhealthy.
Cheers.
Fung
在 2016年3月16日，上午5:39，'Jonine Lee Gabay' satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> 写道：
Dear Chris, Hania and others
Zaquie I agree with you on the value of Bradshaws work and its a great
discussion helpful for us all. My understanding of the two types of Shame
came from study and work with John Bradshaw and his non shaming therapeutic
model for Innerchild work. His work in ‘Healing the Shame that Binds Us’ is
so valuable for understanding the entanglements and enmeshments that happen
as a consequence of shaming. While I love the work of Brene Brown his work
takes a deeper look at the darker aspects of shame.
Understanding the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame can at
times be challenging and so subtle, shame based people cover shame with
shameless shaming disguised in many ways and often as ‘love and caring’(often
completely unconscious of this) When shame is toxic, it is an excruciatingly
painful experience of unexpected exposure, as being seen as flawed and
defective, less than. It divides us from ourselves and from others and any
possibility of true connection and intimacy in relationship, when it is
triggered it sets off many of the responses you mentioned Chris.
Everyone needs a sense of shame, but no one needs to feel ashamed. ―Frederick
Nietzsche
The psychologist Erik Erikson talks about the psychosocial task during the
developmental stage of counter dependence being to strike a balance between
autonomy and shame and doubt, the full affect of shame experienced as limits
put on child’s need to separate and do things his or her own way. With
healthy caregivers this is encouraged with boundaries and limits and mistakes
are corrected in a loving caring way and reassurance given that the behaviour
isn’t ok, shame based parents with their own experience of feeling flawed and
defective will treat the child with disdain not separating the behaviour from
the child.
“Shame is a natural feeling that, when allowed to function well, monitors a
person's sense of excitement or pleasure. Healthy shame is an emotion that
teaches us about our limits. Like all emotions, shame moves us to get our
basic needs met. But when the feeling of shame is violated by a coercive and
perfectionistic religion and culture―especially by shame-based source figures
―it becomes an all-embracing identity.”
A person with internalized shame (toxic) believes he is inherently flawed,
inferior and defective. Such a feeling is so painful that defending scripts
(or strategies) are developed to cover it up. These scripts are the roots of
violence, criminality, war and all forms of addiction.” (Bradshaw, Healing
the Shame that binds us, more than 25 yrs ago references Sylvan Thomkins
model)
Bradshaw also shares below from the earliest known writing on shame.
The earliest treatise on shame was written by Annnibale Pocaterra, born in
1562. Awareness of Pocaterra's book, Two Dialogues on Shame, came from Donald
Nathanson's comprehensive book Shame and Pride. According to Nathanson,
Pocaterra wrote his book on shame at age thirty. His book was the only
scholarly work on shame until Darwin wrote about it three hundred years
later. Pocaterra died a few months after publishing his book. (see Shame and
Pride, pages 443–445).
In the beginning of his book, Pocaterra tells us that 'in the end shame is a
good thing, a part of everyday existence.' Shame, according to Pocaterra,
makes us timorous, humble and contrite and causes outrage against the self.
When we are attacked by shame, Pocaterra says we 'would like nothing better
than to run and hide from the eyes of the world.' He also describes shame as
the 'fear of infamy,' which can lead a person to attack his enemy with
passion. Shame is thus capable of both cowardice and bravery. Long before
Silvan Tomkins's treatise on shame, Pocaterra posited that our emotions are
innate and that 'they are only good or evil as the end to which they are
used.' There is an innate and a learned component to all emotion.
'Therefore,' Pocaterra writes, 'there must be two shames, one natural and
free from awareness and the other acquired.'
Pocaterra understood shame to be our teacher. He thought the shame of
children was like a seed that will become a small plant in youth and leads to
virtue at maturity. Pocaterra looked at blushing as the external sign of
shame and believed that blushing was both the recognition of having made a
mistake as well as the desire to make amends. Three hundred years later
Darwin would posit blushing as that which distinguishes us from all other
animals. Darwin knew that the mother of the blush was shame. For Darwin,
shame defines our essential humanity. Silvan Tomkins views shame as an innate
feeling that limits our experience of interest, curiosity and pleasure.
We could discuss this topic for a year and never exhausted its value! Thanks
everyone, and always your good questions Vinay
Jonine
Jonine Lee Gabay
Mindfulness based Breathwork Therapy I Family Constellations I Counselling I
Coaching I NLP
M 0402 067 024 <tel:0402%20067%20024> <tel:0402%20067%20024
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"Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my ancestors are
behind me.
Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the result of the love of
thousands.""Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my
ancestors are behind me. Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the
result of the love of thousands."
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2016 4:12 AM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Dear Hania and all,
I entirely agree with Hania about shame. Id like to add that I find one of
the greatest pleasure of the “ predator” is to keep the other one “ small”
and Full of shame. Small.
Even though the mistake may be small…but the tendency is to dominate the
other one thru “ shame”. You will be punished…and continue to be punished…
Pay your errors…
It is easy to see the “ predator” in us. If we have a tendency to keep the
other one “ small” and “ paying for his mistakes” even the small ones. We
feel “ on top” and the other “ submissive”
Whatever “ the error” .
Shame is instilled.
One of the greatest book on shame I have ever read is “ Healing the Shame
that Binds You” by John Bradshaw and that helped me a lot.
Zaquie C Meredith, Sao Paulo, Brazil
<http://www.zaquie.com/ ;<http://www.zaquie.com/>> www.zaquie.com
<http://www.zaquie.com/>
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<http://linkedin.com/in/zaquie ;<http://linkedin.com/in/zaquie>>
Linkedin.com/in/zaquie
youtube:zaquiemeredith
twitter:zaquiemeredith
From: < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of "Leslie Nipps
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<mailto:lnipps@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]" <
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
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Reply-To: < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
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<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 1:38 PM
To: Constellation Talk < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
I just got a great deal out of the dialogue between Hania and Chris, so thank
you! I can feel the systemic connection between shame and what Hania is
calling humility. Can’t we all remember a representation in which we were
resisting, resisting shame, and then we let go, and there is was, the bliss
of humility in its place? So, they are surely connected. Whether more like
the way Hania describes it, or as Chris describes it (dampening as a lesser
form of shame—connected to humility perhaps?), I think we can all feel the
systemic desires hidden in shame, and how it can be a gift if we look for
them.
Having said all that, there is a great difference between all this and using
shaming systematically with a client - I think we have two different
conversations overlapping here (one about the systemics of shame, and one
about using shame as a facilitator tool). I can say that systemically, the
role of shaming the client at a recent Hellinger event was less about the
client per se, and more about influencing the larger group. One never knew if
the next client was going to be the love-bombed one, or the shamed one. And
it led to lots of interesting compliance behaviors from both clients and the
rest of the gathering. People who don’t see it as shaming will argue
vociferously that it’s very good for the client who wasn’t “ready” (or some
such). Even considering that it might mean something different can be very
upsetting for people who have a lot of emotional well-being caught up in the
“goodness” of the leader. I think it’s more about a leader and their
followers, than it is about an attempt at a meaningful client intervention.
Peace, Leslie
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
<http://www.leslienipps.com/ ;<http://www.leslienipps.com/>>
www.leslienipps.com <http://www.leslienipps.com/>
Co-Director, 2015 North American Systemic Constellations Conference in San
Diego on November 12-15.
Visit <http://constellateus.com/conference2015 ;
<http://constellateus.com/conference2015>> ConstellateUs.com/conference2015
for more information
On Mar 15, 2016, at 6:35 AM, Hania Gorski <mailto:haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx>> haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk] <
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Chris and All,
I would like to bring the point, that there are different concepts of shame,
and different definitions.
Chris, I respectfully disagree with you - I see that it's a kind of your
definition, or interpretation of shame, as looking at "adaptive" and
"healthy" function of shame.
I see the topic you're describing - as a misconstruction of mixing shame with
humbleness.
The ritual of bowing has nothing in common with shame and it's actually
opposite - it's gentle, humble respect and acknowledgement of being small
(yes, shrinking from being too big, a very healthy process). That is
description of being humble, not shamed.
Humbleness is healthy and adaptive, and facilitates deep growth.
Shame - in my opinion, and my therapeutic/facilitator experience - is never a
good motivator as it's impossible to bring any real goodness by imposing
negativity, like cleaning a floor with a dirty cloth.
It always brings a sense of isolation, alienation, separation, not connection.
Shame stands next to fear and guilt and rejection, and it was used along with
all these negative "tools" as an effective social control/power weapon
(sometimes deadly) in the history of human kind, and it is still used. It
was/is also widely used in raising children to make them obedient and
disconnected from themselves in order to serve adult society purposes.
Shame is also inseparable from family "dirty" secrets, sexual abuse trauma,
and domestic violence.
Shame is a toxic tool of domination in relationships, separating people from
each other, and from Love, therefore it's against Orders of Love. That's my
definition.
No surprise that we deal with shame in constellation work; from the
beginning, in a process of offering clients constellation, we see facets of
shame in family system - visible even in our clients' resistance to work in a
group setting.
Groups/constellation workshops are potential theatres of shame and
retraumatisation, so it is so extremely important for the facilitator to be
aware of these dynamics, and to not step into/re-create the shame space. The
Knowing Field is also a potential mining field.
Thanks Robert for posting the link to Vivien Broughton article about ethics
in constellation facilitation - what she listed as good qualities of a
facilitator, emphasises importance of navigating through the constellation
process in such way that doesn't deepen shame and doesn't retraumatise
clients (and representatives).
I'd like to respond also to the beginning of this thread when someone asked
about experiences with shame in constellations.
I had a very interesting and learning experience as a representative; I was
representing a father of the client; this father was a son of a man who was
caught up as a paedophile.
While I was standing in my representative role, I've experienced few feelings
and body sensations/movements. One of the leading feelings was an enormous
shame, felt as unforgivable guilt/shame and alienation; my body was heavy
under these feelings, like a lifeless heavy bag, and my eyes were glued to
the floor.
Unfortunately, the facilitator didn't ask for my report as a representative
for a long time (even if the main enquiry from the client was about her
relationship with her father whom I was representing).
The facilitator was stating aloud that the father is looking at dead, and
bringing representative for dead. Later on, when it was not leading anywhere,
I was asked for the report, and I stated my feelings of shame (with few
others). When the shame was brought and acknowledged, a process of healing
begun, and gradually I could see my daughter. That was bringing a further
healing to the daughter.
I'd like to respond also to someone mentioning prof. Brene Brown, a
researcher of vulnerability and shame. I love her concepts and presentations,
she brings a lot of new air to understanding of social dynamics of shame and
vulnerability in society and culture. She clearly distinguishes shame from
humbleness, and her research proves that shame damages and alienates people.
Her antidote to shame - in short - is courage and authenticity, which implies
humbleness and acceptance of our imperfections.
Her findings are great in a broad social context as Brene Brown focuses
mainly on social/cultural/gender context of shame (she is a professor of
social work at Texas University).
She calls herself a shame researcher, but unfortunately she doesn't go to
shame issues in a trauma/family system context.
That area of shame still awaits to be explored fully, as some of B.B.
proposals of resolving shame are not really helpful for traumatised clients
who are deeply buried in shame.
I think that shame is so important and rich topic, and there are so
interesting cultural specifics regarding reasons and expressions of shame. We
need to be aware of these cross-cultural subtleties.
I hope to hear more from our forum members.
Best regards
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Hania Gorski, Melbourne
Psychologist, Relationship Coach, Systemic Therapist
Mobile: <tel:+61%20400%20225%20357 <tel:+61%20400%20225%20357>> +61 400 225
357 <tel:%2B61%20400%20225%20357>
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<http://www.integritysources.com/>
The world, I’ve come to think, is like the surface of a frozen lake. We walk
along, we slip, we try to keep our balance and not to fall. One day, there’s
a crack, and so we learn that underneath us — is an unimaginable depth. James
Joyce
On 15 March 2016 at 22:16, 'Cristina Casanova' <mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>[ConstellationTalk] <
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Learning to stay with the affect of shame in the body, and discharging the
emotion without reacting, finding a creative answers gives me an immense
freedom to be.
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto: ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 4:10 AM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Thanks for that Cristina
You have given us Tomkins description of what elicits the affect of shame and
I think it is a great starting point.
If as constellation practitioners we understood affect/ emotions better we
could do a much better job.
Personally I do have some problems with Tomkins theory. Firstly the word
shame is far too strong for most people and they automatically equate it with
a toxic form of shame where it spirals out of control in much the same way as
anxiety can when it becomes panic. So "shame" is a difficult word. A better
word for the mild version of that feeling is dampening as in "His excitement
was dampened." We can intuitively tell that this is accurate because when we
say someone is shameless we mean they won't let go of their excitement, they
won't admit they have made a mistake.
With the word dampening, it is now much more possible to see the adaptive
value of shame. Then it is much more possible to have a sensible discussion.
It is then possible to see there is a mild version of shame called dampening
which has a lot of qualities that are identical to the severe form called
shame or humiliation. Both slow us down physically and cognitively. Dampening
helps us to step back and take stock and then act more skillfully. Shame can
paralyse us.
Despite this shame feels quite different to dampening just as panic feels
quite different to mild anxiety. The way to deal with panic is to develop a
friendly relationship with anxiety. The way to deal with shame is to develop
a friendly relationship with dampening.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425
<tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>> +61 (0)3 9420 1425
<tel:%2B61%20%280%293%209420%201425>
<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/ ;<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>> www.cwalsh.com.au
<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, 'Cristina Casanova'
<mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>[ConstellationTalk] <
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Shame is an affect wired into the nervous system. It happens when joy and
interest are interrupted and it is felt by people in different degrees.
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto: ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 8:42 PM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Hi Chris,
I am not so sure about “shameless is untrustworthy”. The colloquial use of
shameless is perhaps someone who will not hold back in the face of possible
disapproval or rejection. That may not make them unloving and therefore
untrustworthy.
Buddhism not with standing, could it be that shame is an unequivocal sign of
trauma? Would the healthy, happy and wise still need the intense fear of
shame or self rejection as an impulse control mechanism? Shall we throw out
that baby, bathwater and all?
Best wishes,
Robert
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Chris Walsh <mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk] <
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Thanks Cristina
Sylvan Tomkins and his followers including Donald Nathanson are the only
people I know who define shame in a meaningful way when they talk about it.
Without a definition much of the conversation about shame ends up being a
series of misunderstandings where people are talking cross purposes.
Tomkins describes shame as being a flattening emotion (or affect to be
precise) that makes us lose energy, makes us clumsy and stops us from
thinking clearly. Despite that, like all of our emotions, it has adaptive
value. It dampens our excitement when it is misdirected. There is a
linguistic clue to that when we look at the word "shameless".
Someone who is shameless is untrustworthy because they don't pay any
attention to social constraints. Shame is important for socialisation and
fitting into groups. Of course it can be misused to beat people into shape
but let's not commit the error of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is interesting that Steve who is working with Asian cultures raised this
topic. Asian cultures are less individualistic and prioritise collective
wellbeing. As such they treat shaming more delicately. They are very aware of
it in the concept of "face". Saving face is extremely important for the
Chinese. Causing someone to lose face is a very serious matter.
Unfortunately we in the West have gone from ignoring shame to demonising it -
especially in therapeutic circles. As far as I am concerned that is still a
very primitive response. Shame needs to be integrated, to be given a place
and included and to be valued as an adaptive emotion. Only then can we have a
healthy relationship with shame - Sounds like a constellation doesn't it!
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425
<tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>> +61 (0)3 9420 1425
<tel:%2B61%20%280%293%209420%201425>
<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/ ;<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>> www.cwalsh.com.au
<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
