Hi Robert
It is a real pity you are so attached to this discomfort about accepting
the term healthy shame. I suggest that rather than accepting that this
discomfort indicates that the term is wrong for you, that instead you just
sit with the discomfort and see what treasures might emerge from it.
When you say: If shame is mild, quickly dissipating and non toxic why would
it even present in the waiting room?
You make an extremely valid point. People don't present complaining about
healthy shame. Why would they? But that doesn't mean they have a healthy
realtionship with shame. They never will until they can embrace healthy
shame. That's why we need to bring it into the therapeutic setting and into
constellations.When I first learned constellation work there was a big
emphasis on solution focus. The solution to toxic shame is not absence of
shame. That is impossible as shame is a naturally occurring emotion.
Charles Darwin even described it in animals. The only possible solution is
healthy shame.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris, Jonine and All,
Indeed you are right in noting the assumption of blame as the underlying
dynamic in shame. However without blame can we really talk about shame? If
the self is not rebuked by the self what is behind the dampening emotional
discomfort? Even mild embarrassment seems to indicate an emotional charge.
If shame is mild, quickly dissipating and non toxic why would it even
present in the waiting room?
No matter how I am turning it, healthy and shame do not want to dance
together for me. Mild, quickly dissipating shame I can relate to, non toxic
shame I can also accept; a healthy soar throat just because it is not the
bird flu just does not seem as a felicitous turn of phrase.
All in all I do agree with Jonine and you that the critical point of
course is how we deal with shame. If shame can interrupt, expose or deflate
us yet the non toxic version can moves us to take appropriate remedial
action then it is the remedial action that is healthy.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Robert
Thanks for your perseverance with this difficult and important topic. I
hope our discussion will help constellation practitioners be more aware of
shame and more adept at dealing with it.
Your paraphrasing of my points shows me that you really get what I am
saying about shame except for one nuance.
When you say:
The implication is that the ‘not working out’, social disconnection,
disapproval is due to the speaker (self) and not the audience or a possible
third factor.
That implication reflects an assumption of blaming.
This suggests an internal entanglement where some toxic shame is still
locked in either at the pole of attack self or attack other.
The implication of "not working out" actually is that the shame has
evolved out of the entire system. For the shame to stay healthy and not
degenerate into toxic shame any looking needs to be done with the attitude
of trying to find a good adaptive response rather than looking for someone
to blame.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
On Monday, 21 March 2016, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and thank you for giving us plenty of helpful food for thought.
On the one hand a skilful therapeutic approach to shame seems to be
associated with the expression “healthy shame” and on the other hand
healthy shame is defined “as being an emotion that takes the energy out of
something that had your attention and interest but wasn't working out." or
“a little shame can take the energy out of something that isn't really
working" Accordingly healthy shame or a little shame is the signal that
says it might be time to deflate and back off or we will lose some social
acceptance or approval.
The implication is that the ‘not working out’, social disconnection,
disapproval is due to the speaker (self) and not the audience or a possible
third factor. This impingement on the self is where I find the attribute
healthy a bit slippery.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi all
I apologise for the poor punctuation and grammar in the post i recently
sent to the group addressed to Robert. for those who are interested I have
edited it and reposted it here:
I once saw a skilled mindfulness practitioner who wanted clinical
supervision combined with some therapy. He was suffering severe anxiety.
When I suggested he sit with it, he insisted he was but I told him that I
could tell he wasn't. We then sat with his anxiety together and I asked him
to describe the sensations in his body. He described an unpleasant
sensation in the chest that increased on the inbreath. When I asked if it
decreased on the out breath or at any other time he said "no". I then asked
if the sensation was getting stronger and stronger. Again he said "no". I
pointed out those two answers were incompatible. If the sensation was
getting stronger on the inbreath but not increasing overall then there must
be a time it decreased. He then paid closer attention and noticed that the
sensation did indeed decrease on the out breath. On further reflection he
realised he wasn't really sitting with the anxiety but rather he was
sitting with the anxiety - waiting for it to go. So he continued to be
anxious about being anxious and remained stuck in a toxic spiral of
anxiety. This insight was a turning point for him.
You talking about healthy shame as "a little shame is good for you
because it will hold you back from doing bad things". This is similar to
the experience of this therapist. It reveals a narrative that supports you
reeentering toxic shame just as he was unintentionally feeding his anxiety
. Instead I encourage you to think of healthy shame as being an emotion
that takes the energy out of something that had your attention and interest
but wasn't working out.
I have to tell you I have given therapy to a number of very empathic
therapists, who have worked a lot with clients with toxic shame, who have
been on the edge of burn out. These people also seem to have serious
issues with vagueness. They are all seem to be stuck in subtle levels of
shame themselves, which they can only overcome when they start to
understand the healthy adaptive side of shame. Those that are able to do
make this transition are very happy to rediscover a wonderful lightness of
being.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Chris Walsh <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi Robert
I once saw a skilled mindfulness practitioner who wanted clinical
supervision combined with some therapy. He was suffering severe anxiety
when I suggested he sit with it he insisted he was but I told him that I
could tell he wasn't. We then sat with his anxiety together and I asked
him
to describe the sensations in his body. He described an unpleasant
sensation in the chest that increased on the inbreath. When I asked if it
decreased on the out breath or at any other time he said "no". I then
asked
if the sensation was getting stronger and stronger. Again he said "no". I
pointed out those two answers were incompatible. If the sensation was
getting stronger on the inbreath but not increasing overall then there
must be a time it decreased.He then paid closer attention and noticed that
the sensation did indeed decrease on the out breath. On further reflection
he realised he wasn't really sitting with the anxiety but rather he was
sitting with the anxiety waiting for it to go. So he continued to be
anxious about being anxious and remained stuck in a toxic spiral of
anxiety. The insight he got in this session was a turning point for him.
You talking about healthy shame as being "a little shame is good for
you because it will hold you back from doing bad things" is similar to
the
experience of this therapist. It reveals a narrative that supports you
reentering toxic shame. Instead I encourage you to think of healthy shame
as being an emotion that takes the energy out of something that had your
attention and interest but wasn't working out. I have to tell you I have
given therapy to a number of very empathic therapists, who have worked a
lot with clients with toxic shame, who have been on the edge of burn out.
These people also seem to have serious issues with vagueness. These
people
are all stuck in subtle levels of shame themselves, which they can only
overcome when they start to understand the healthy adaptive side of shame.
Those that are able to do make this transition are very happy to
rediscover
a wonderful lightness of being.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and Everyone,
Thank you again for your continuing engagement on this subject of
shame. To clarify things further I am in complete agreement with your
proposed bioenergetic / body energetic strategy of dealing with shame.
The
issue for me is not that of fear or avoidance of confronting shame in a
therapeutic context but that of considering / labelling shame in a
general
context as healthy on any level, that is to say “a little shame is good
for
you because it will hold you back from doing bad things”. Behaviour
modification by restraint, that may leave the underlying dynamics in
tact.
Kind regards to all,
Robert
On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear Robert
Thank you for remaining open enough to be willing to explore this
difficult issue. Hania rightly points out the difficulty with language
but
if you left it at that you would be seriously shortchanging yourself.
The
price that is paid for creating a rigid distinction between dampening /
healthy shame and toxic shame is the same price someone pays who won't
have
anything to do with fire after having been caught in a bush fire. You
miss
out on a wonderful resource. In this case it is a resource that helps
you
to be adaptable and also helps you to develop genuine humility as
apposed
to that icky fake humility that happens when people try to be humble by
an
act of will.
I recently treated a soldier who had post traumatic stress disorder
(PTSD) after seeing a mate blown up by a mine in front of him.
Consequently he had an irrational reaction of terror every time he saw a
divot in the ground in Australia.Every time he aoided a divot and he did
not get blown up his fear of divots was reinforced and his general
level of
anxiety would get worse. This is a classical reaction. After dealing
with
the flashbacks and number of the other problems with his PTSD I
encouraged
him to approach divots in the ground. Soon after he was in a playground
with his child and became terrified when he saw a divot in the ground
but
he took a few deep breaths and approached that divot and kicked it
around
with his feet. He was then able to enjoy playing with his daughter for
an
hour after that.Fear of healthy shame is equivalent to fear of that
divot.
That leads to a self fulfilling prophesy whereby your averse reaction to
healthy shame turns it into toxic shame. So you then live your life in
fear
of being shamed and in fear of shaming others. That's a life treading on
eggshells. That's a life where your resilience is continuously in
danger of
being seriously undermined by a toxic shame attack.
I would therefore like to invite you to try an experiment, taking
the lead from Cristina's posts. Next time you feel some shame just try
practicing mindful awareness of your breath and let any thoughts that
come
up go past like clouds. You can label them as "just thoughts" if you
like.
Then allow yourself to focus on subtle sensations coursing through your
body for at least 10 breaths. See if you can also notice the state of
your
mind - whether it feels clear or cloudy, calm or agitated. I invite
you to
get to know the unique signature that shame has in your body right now.
I
invite you to notice what happens to this sensation if you try to do
nothing about it except to observe it and avoid complicating it with
further story. I also invite you to notice how you reengage with the
world
after going through this process. If you go through this process
whenever
you encounter shame - either yours or someone else's, I guarantee that
you
will make extraordinary discoveries which will eventually include the
healing power of shame.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Robert Grant erebees@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello Everyone,
Thank you Chris for your additional explanations and strategic
clarity, and everyone for such a long and engaging discussion. I was
wondering why do I feel a measure of unease about assigning any at all
beneficial quality to shame, guilt or even regret. On further
reflection my
difficulty is that we could be attaching a positive attribute to
something
that is in fact only a restraint. With other words the positive
behaviour
modification is not the expression of intrinsic and authentic goodwill,
generosity or kindness but internal pressure, fear or pain. Of course
in
the real world one should be grateful even for small mercies. One could
also say that prisons are full of people who had no restraint. And a
pragmatic person may say that it does not matter what colour the cat
is as
long as it catches mice. All true, yet for me there is something just
a bit
out of tune.
Best wishes to all,
Robert
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 10:13 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I agree Cristina that ultimately the most healthy way of dealing
with shame is to sit with the body sensations. This avoids going into
secondary emotions and getting stuck in a toxic repetitive cycle. This
requires a very strong mindful awareness practice with a strongly
developed
prefrontal cortex. That is quite easily achievable for many of us
with a
little bit of training. However that is not so for people who have had
highly traumatic childhoods. They will quickly become overwhelmed and
slip
into a destructive narrative, which then elicits lots of secondary
emotions
including more shame.. These people need a lot of empathic holding
before
they are capable of sitting with the physical sensations of shame as
you
describe.
Also I believe you are absolutely correct when you say that guilt
is entirely different from shame. Guilt is a signal that tells us our
belonging is threatened, just like pain is a signal that tells us
when our
body is threatened. Neither is strictly speaking an emotion, even
though we
do talk about both of them as if they are. The reason we get confused
is
because they both elicit strong emotions. Pain elicits distress and
fear.
Guilt elicits shame and anxiety. Pain is not distress or fear. Guilt
is not
shame or anxiety.
I do however understand Robert's need for a clearer linguistic
distinction between toxic shame and healthy shame. The word shame is
so
loaded that it is almost impossible for many people to talk about it
without going into shame and becoming foggy in their thinking. (Foggy
thinking along with lowered gaze and loss of muscle tone are the
hallmarks
of all types of shame) That is why I like to use the word dampening
which
describes the process of shame without risking a toxic reaction in the
reader. Nonetheless we do need to remain clear we are talking about
the
same process. Just because fire can cause devastating damage we don't
feel
the need to call the fire that we cook our food with something
different.
Ultimately, in the interest of clarity and efficient healing we need
to
recognise that toxic shame and healthy shame are essentially the
same, just
like a bush fire and the flame under your fry pan are essentially the
same
thing.
Cheers
Chris
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:38 PM, 'Cristina Casanova'
krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In my experience, the most liberating thing to do is to learn to
feel and manage the affect of shame, no matter how toxic, and
discharge it
through the body, as in trauma resolution. Also there is a huge
difference
between shame and guilt. In guilt, the Self is in integrity and has
made a
mistake, in shame, the entire Self is Bad. Cristina
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 9:34 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
“healthy dealing with shame means to face it and acknowledge it.
It means letting go of the toxic avoidance reactions of attacking
other,
attacking self, avoiding other or avoiding self. These just bind you
deeper
into toxic shame. The empathic therapist can be very helpful in this
process. It also means embracing the reparative aspect of healthy
shame.”
Hi Chris and All,
Indeed we are having a good look at this shame issue. Most of
your reflections make good sense to me. The only point where I would
welcome a little clarification is that of ‘healthy shame”. Feeling
regret,
feeling that one has made a mistake, not wishing to repeat mistakes
or
cause hurt – these are clear motives. Considering how close they are
and
how easy it is to turn “healthy” shame into toxic shame, is using the
expression “healthy shame” a good idea? My fundamental concern is
that
somehow this easy mix up will obscure the self dividing and
controlling
potential of shame.
More recently Brené Brown has sharpened the focus on these very
different yet easily confused concepts by re-labelling them in ways
that
feel not only more accurate but much less murky and open to
interpretation/confusion. What has been described as toxic shame is
what
Brown merely calls shame. And she calls healthy shame what it
actually is,
which is guilt. Brown also makes it clear that feeling guilty can
absolutely be a healthy thing, as this emotion can and often does
lead to
positive behaviour change.
Best wishes,
Robert
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi all
What a wonderful and rich conversation!
The Western Shame Guilt literature is really messed up by the
fact that almost no thought is given to definitions and the authors
assume
we all understand the same things by these words. Clearly we don't.
This is
particularly so in the shame culture versus guilt culture literature.
It is useful to start with Bert Hellinger's revolutionary way of
thinking about guilt. Instead of seeing the feeling of guilt as
being about
legally or morally right or wrong he reconceptualised guilt as
something
that arises when our belonging is threatened. Once he gave examples
it made
complete sense and this definition was liberating!
So guilt arises when belonging is threatened much the same as
pain arises when our physical body is under attack. Both of these are
warning signals . They both have emotions associated with them but
they are
not really emotions or affects in and of themselves. Guilt elicits
the
emotions of anxiety and shame just as pain elicits the emotions of
distress
and fear. So dividing cultures into shame cultures and guilt
cultures never
really made sense.They are chalk and cheese. I think this is why the
idea
never really caught on with the general public.
What does make sense is that there are shame affirming and shame
denying cultures, with the West falling into the latter. In either
culture,
shame can be misused to bully people into submission. That then fits
with
Fung seeing shame as equivalent to guilt in the Eastern cultures.
Shame is
simply more palpable as the emotional response to guilt than it is
in the
West where people are more tuned in to the anxiety response.
I agree that honour is the opposite of toxic shame. In the west
pride is more seen as the opposite of shame. That difference is
because
honour, as Fung describes it, refers to relationships, whereas pride
is
more of an individualistic notion.
Fung gives us the clue that healthy dealing with shame means to
face it and acknowledge it. It means letting go of the toxic
avoidance
reactions of attacking other, attacking self, avoiding other or
avoiding
self. These just bind you deeper into toxic shame. The empathic
therapist
can be very helpful in this process. It also means embracing the
reparative
aspect of healthy shame. Without this the person who has experienced
toxic
shame will always be prone to going back into toxic shame and they
will
never be truly resilient. To help with the process of embracing
healthy
shame, a clear minded therapist can be very helpful. A therapist can
only
be empathic enough and clear minded enough to help others in this
way, if
they have already cleared their own toxic shame, and learnt to
embrace
dampening/healthy shame.If you have done that then you will have the
capacity to deal elegantly with these issues when they arise in
constellations.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:10 AM, lap fung cheng
ahfung@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear Chris, and all,
As a facilitator from oriental culture, I would like to add
something to Shame topic.
Oriental culture is usually labeled as shame culture, contrasting
to western guilt culture by academics.
My own observation for our culture:
1. Shame is equivalent to guilt from the perspective of
conscience. Usually the expression is shame-guilt complex, and that’s
actually the literal translation in our language.
2. Shame is usually paired up with Honour. e.g. if one’s deed is
considered “wrong” or deviated from common understanding of society,
he/she
may be dishonoring his/her family and ancestors. If one’s deed is
contributing to prosperity of a group, he/she may be considered
honoring
his/her family and ancestors.
3. Both victims and perpetrators may also experience shame
feeling. Whether shame is healthy or not may depend on if their
attitude is
facing or avoiding. Victims experience shame of not taking their own
responsibility, and lead to rectifying action, this is healthy.
Victims
feel shame and hide away further from crowd (e.g. being raped, being
homosexual etc.), it is unhealthy. Perpetrators experience shame and
understand their harm to other, then they bow to victims, this is
healthy.
Perpetrators experience shame, try to deny the truth, and turn away,
this
is unhealthy.
Cheers.
Fung
在 2016年3月16日，上午5:39，'Jonine Lee Gabay'
satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 写道：
Dear Chris, Hania and others
Zaquie I agree with you on the value of Bradshaws work and its a
great discussion helpful for us all. My understanding of the two
types of
Shame came from study and work with John Bradshaw and his non shaming
therapeutic model for Innerchild work. His work in ‘Healing the
Shame that
Binds Us’ is so valuable for understanding the entanglements and
enmeshments that happen as a consequence of shaming. While I love
the work
of Brene Brown his work takes a deeper look at the darker aspects of
shame.
Understanding the difference between healthy shame and toxic
shame can at times be challenging and so subtle, shame based people
cover
shame with shameless shaming disguised in many ways and often as
‘love and
caring’(often completely unconscious of this) When shame is toxic,
it is an
excruciatingly painful experience of unexpected exposure, as being
seen as
flawed and defective, less than. It divides us from ourselves and
from
others and any possibility of true connection and intimacy in
relationship,
when it is triggered it sets off many of the responses you mentioned
Chris.
Everyone needs a sense of shame, but no one needs to feel
ashamed. ―Frederick Nietzsche
The psychologist Erik Erikson talks about the psychosocial task
during the developmental stage of counter dependence being to strike
a
balance between autonomy and shame and doubt, the full affect of
shame
experienced as limits put on child’s need to separate and do things
his or
her own way. With healthy caregivers this is encouraged with
boundaries and
limits and mistakes are corrected in a loving caring way and
reassurance
given that the behaviour isn’t ok, shame based parents with their own
experience of feeling flawed and defective will treat the child with
disdain not separating the behaviour from the child.
“Shame is a natural feeling that, when allowed to function well,
monitors a person's sense of excitement or pleasure. Healthy shame
is an
emotion that teaches us about our limits. Like all emotions, shame
moves us
to get our basic needs met. But when the feeling of shame is
violated by a
coercive and perfectionistic religion and culture―especially by
shame-based
source figures ―it becomes an all-embracing identity.”
A person with internalized shame (toxic) believes he is
inherently flawed, inferior and defective. Such a feeling is so
painful
that defending scripts (or strategies) are developed to cover it up.
These
scripts are the roots of violence, criminality, war and all forms of
addiction.” (Bradshaw, Healing the Shame that binds us, more than 25
yrs
ago references Sylvan Thomkins model)
Bradshaw also shares below from the earliest known writing on
shame.
The earliest treatise on shame was written by Annnibale
Pocaterra, born in 1562. Awareness of Pocaterra's book, Two
Dialogues on
Shame, came from Donald Nathanson's comprehensive book Shame and
Pride.
According to Nathanson, Pocaterra wrote his book on shame at age
thirty.
His book was the only scholarly work on shame until Darwin wrote
about it
three hundred years later. Pocaterra died a few months after
publishing his
book. (see Shame and Pride, pages 443–445).
In the beginning of his book, Pocaterra tells us that 'in the end
shame is a good thing, a part of everyday existence.' Shame,
according to
Pocaterra, makes us timorous, humble and contrite and causes outrage
against the self.
When we are attacked by shame, Pocaterra says we 'would like
nothing better than to run and hide from the eyes of the world.' He
also
describes shame as the 'fear of infamy,' which can lead a person to
attack
his enemy with passion. Shame is thus capable of both cowardice and
bravery. Long before Silvan Tomkins's treatise on shame, Pocaterra
posited
that our emotions are innate and that 'they are only good or evil as
the
end to which they are used.' There is an innate and a learned
component to
all emotion. 'Therefore,' Pocaterra writes, 'there must be two
shames, one
natural and free from awareness and the other acquired.'
Pocaterra understood shame to be our teacher. He thought the
shame of children was like a seed that will become a small plant in
youth
and leads to virtue at maturity. Pocaterra looked at blushing as the
external sign of shame and believed that blushing was both the
recognition
of having made a mistake as well as the desire to make amends. Three
hundred years later Darwin would posit blushing as that which
distinguishes
us from all other animals. Darwin knew that the mother of the blush
was
shame. For Darwin, shame defines our essential humanity. Silvan
Tomkins
views shame as an innate feeling that limits our experience of
interest,
curiosity and pleasure.
We could discuss this topic for a year and never exhausted its
value! Thanks everyone, and always your good questions Vinay
Jonine
Jonine Lee Gabay
Mindfulness based Breathwork Therapy I Family Constellations I
Counselling I Coaching I NLP
M 0402 067 024 <tel:0402%20067%20024> I E <mailto:
jonine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
jonine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I W <
http://www.coreconnectiontrainings.com/>
www.coreconnectiontrainings.com
"Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my
ancestors are behind me.
Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the result of the
love of thousands.""Walking, I am listening to a deeper way.
Suddenly all
my ancestors are behind me. Be still, they say. Watch and listen.
You are
the result of the love of thousands."
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ <mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2016 4:12 AM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Dear Hania and all,
I entirely agree with Hania about shame. Id like to add that I
find one of the greatest pleasure of the “ predator” is to keep the
other
one “ small” and Full of shame. Small.
Even though the mistake may be small…but the tendency is to
dominate the other one thru “ shame”. You will be punished…and
continue to
be punished…
Pay your errors…
It is easy to see the “ predator” in us. If we have a tendency to
keep the other one “ small” and “ paying for his mistakes” even the
small
ones. We feel “ on top” and the other “ submissive”
Whatever “ the error” .
Shame is instilled.
One of the greatest book on shame I have ever read is “ Healing
the Shame that Binds You” by John Bradshaw and that helped me a lot.
Zaquie C Meredith, Sao Paulo, Brazil
<http://www.zaquie.com/> www.zaquie.com
<mailto:zaquie@xxxxxxxxxx> zaquie@xxxxxxxxxx
(011) 979978808 (Vivo)
<http://www.facebook/com/zaquie.meredith>
www.facebook/com/zaquie.meredith
<http://linkedin.com/in/zaquie> Linkedin.com/in/zaquie
youtube:zaquiemeredith
twitter:zaquiemeredith
From: < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of "Leslie Nipps
<mailto:lnipps@xxxxxxxxx> lnipps@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]"
< <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: < <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 1:38 PM
To: Constellation Talk < <mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
I just got a great deal out of the dialogue between Hania and
Chris, so thank you! I can feel the systemic connection between
shame and
what Hania is calling humility. Can’t we all remember a
representation in
which we were resisting, resisting shame, and then we let go, and
there is
was, the bliss of humility in its place? So, they are surely
connected.
Whether more like the way Hania describes it, or as Chris describes
it
(dampening as a lesser form of shame—connected to humility
perhaps?), I
think we can all feel the systemic desires hidden in shame, and how
it can
be a gift if we look for them.
Having said all that, there is a great difference between all
this and using shaming systematically with a client - I think we
have two
different conversations overlapping here (one about the systemics of
shame,
and one about using shame as a facilitator tool). I can say that
systemically, the role of shaming the client at a recent Hellinger
event
was less about the client per se, and more about influencing the
larger
group. One never knew if the next client was going to be the
love-bombed
one, or the shamed one. And it led to lots of interesting compliance
behaviors from both clients and the rest of the gathering. People
who don’t
see it as shaming will argue vociferously that it’s very good for the
client who wasn’t “ready” (or some such). Even considering that it
might
mean something different can be very upsetting for people who have a
lot of
emotional well-being caught up in the “goodness” of the leader. I
think
it’s more about a leader and their followers, than it is about an
attempt
at a meaningful client intervention.
Peace, Leslie
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
<http://www.leslienipps.com/> www.leslienipps.com
Co-Director, 2015 North American Systemic Constellations
Conference in San Diego on November 12-15.
Visit <http://constellateus.com/conference2015>
ConstellateUs.com/conference2015 for more information
On Mar 15, 2016, at 6:35 AM, Hania Gorski <mailto:
haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx> haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]
< <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and All,
I would like to bring the point, that there are different
concepts of shame, and different definitions.
Chris, I respectfully disagree with you - I see that it's a kind
of your definition, or interpretation of shame, as looking at
"adaptive"
and "healthy" function of shame.
I see the topic you're describing - as a misconstruction of
mixing shame with humbleness.
The ritual of bowing has nothing in common with shame and it's
actually opposite - it's gentle, humble respect and acknowledgement
of
being small (yes, shrinking from being too big, a very healthy
process).
That is description of being humble, not shamed.
Humbleness is healthy and adaptive, and facilitates deep growth.
Shame - in my opinion, and my therapeutic/facilitator experience
- is never a good motivator as it's impossible to bring any real
goodness
by imposing negativity, like cleaning a floor with a dirty cloth.
It always brings a sense of isolation, alienation, separation,
not connection.
Shame stands next to fear and guilt and rejection, and it was
used along with all these negative "tools" as an effective social
control/power weapon (sometimes deadly) in the history of human
kind, and
it is still used. It was/is also widely used in raising children to
make
them obedient and disconnected from themselves in order to serve
adult
society purposes.
Shame is also inseparable from family "dirty" secrets, sexual
abuse trauma, and domestic violence.
Shame is a toxic tool of domination in relationships, separating
people from each other, and from Love, therefore it's against Orders
of
Love. That's my definition.
No surprise that we deal with shame in constellation work; from
the beginning, in a process of offering clients constellation, we see
facets of shame in family system - visible even in our clients'
resistance
to work in a group setting.
Groups/constellation workshops are potential theatres of shame
and retraumatisation, so it is so extremely important for the
facilitator
to be aware of these dynamics, and to not step into/re-create the
shame
space. The Knowing Field is also a potential mining field.
Thanks Robert for posting the link to Vivien Broughton article
about ethics in constellation facilitation - what she listed as good
qualities of a facilitator, emphasises importance of navigating
through the
constellation process in such way that doesn't deepen shame and
doesn't
retraumatise clients (and representatives).
I'd like to respond also to the beginning of this thread when
someone asked about experiences with shame in constellations.
I had a very interesting and learning experience as a
representative; I was representing a father of the client; this
father was
a son of a man who was caught up as a paedophile.
While I was standing in my representative role, I've experienced
few feelings and body sensations/movements. One of the leading
feelings was
an enormous shame, felt as unforgivable guilt/shame and alienation;
my body
was heavy under these feelings, like a lifeless heavy bag, and my
eyes were
glued to the floor.
Unfortunately, the facilitator didn't ask for my report as a
representative for a long time (even if the main enquiry from the
client
was about her relationship with her father whom I was representing).
The facilitator was stating aloud that the father is looking at
dead, and bringing representative for dead. Later on, when it was not
leading anywhere, I was asked for the report, and I stated my
feelings of
shame (with few others). When the shame was brought and
acknowledged, a
process of healing begun, and gradually I could see my daughter.
That was
bringing a further healing to the daughter.
I'd like to respond also to someone mentioning prof. Brene Brown,
a researcher of vulnerability and shame. I love her concepts and
presentations, she brings a lot of new air to understanding of social
dynamics of shame and vulnerability in society and culture. She
clearly
distinguishes shame from humbleness, and her research proves that
shame
damages and alienates people. Her antidote to shame - in short - is
courage
and authenticity, which implies humbleness and acceptance of our
imperfections.
Her findings are great in a broad social context as Brene Brown
focuses mainly on social/cultural/gender context of shame (she is a
professor of social work at Texas University).
She calls herself a shame researcher, but unfortunately she
doesn't go to shame issues in a trauma/family system context.
That area of shame still awaits to be explored fully, as some of
B.B. proposals of resolving shame are not really helpful for
traumatised
clients who are deeply buried in shame.
I think that shame is so important and rich topic, and there are
so interesting cultural specifics regarding reasons and expressions
of
shame. We need to be aware of these cross-cultural subtleties.
I hope to hear more from our forum members.
Best regards
Description: Image removed by sender. photo
<http://au.linkedin.com/in/haniagorski> Description: Image
removed by sender.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.wisestamp.com/icons_32/linkedin.png
Hania Gorski, Melbourne
Psychologist, Relationship Coach, Systemic Therapist
Mobile: <tel:+61%20400%20225%20357> +61 400 225 357
Email: <mailto:haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx> haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx
Website: <http://www.wholerelationships.com%20%
20www.familysystemic.com%20%20www.integritysources.com/>
www.wholerelationships.com www.familysystemic.com
www.integritysources.com
The world, I’ve come to think, is like the surface of a frozen
lake. We walk along, we slip, we try to keep our balance and not to
fall.
One day, there’s a crack, and so we learn that underneath us — is an
unimaginable depth. James Joyce
On 15 March 2016 at 22:16, 'Cristina Casanova' <mailto:
krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]
< <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Learning to stay with the affect of shame in the body, and
discharging the emotion without reacting, finding a creative answers
gives
me an immense freedom to be.
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: ;<mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 4:10 AM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Thanks for that Cristina
You have given us Tomkins description of what elicits the affect
of shame and I think it is a great starting point.
If as constellation practitioners we understood affect/ emotions
better we could do a much better job.
Personally I do have some problems with Tomkins theory. Firstly
the word shame is far too strong for most people and they
automatically
equate it with a toxic form of shame where it spirals out of control
in
much the same way as anxiety can when it becomes panic. So "shame"
is a
difficult word. A better word for the mild version of that feeling is
dampening as in "His excitement was dampened." We can intuitively
tell that
this is accurate because when we say someone is shameless we mean
they
won't let go of their excitement, they won't admit they have made a
mistake.
With the word dampening, it is now much more possible to see the
adaptive value of shame. Then it is much more possible to have a
sensible
discussion. It is then possible to see there is a mild version of
shame
called dampening which has a lot of qualities that are identical to
the
severe form called shame or humiliation. Both slow us down
physically and
cognitively. Dampening helps us to step back and take stock and then
act
more skillfully. Shame can paralyse us.
Despite this shame feels quite different to dampening just as
panic feels quite different to mild anxiety. The way to deal with
panic is
to develop a friendly relationship with anxiety. The way to deal
with shame
is to develop a friendly relationship with dampening.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425> +61 (0)3 9420 1425
<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/> www.cwalsh.com.au
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, 'Cristina Casanova' <mailto:
krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]
< <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Shame is an affect wired into the nervous system. It happens when
joy and interest are interrupted and it is felt by people in
different
degrees.
From: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto: ;<mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 8:42 PM
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Hi Chris,
I am not so sure about “shameless is untrustworthy”. The
colloquial use of shameless is perhaps someone who will not hold
back in
the face of possible disapproval or rejection. That may not make them
unloving and therefore untrustworthy.
Buddhism not with standing, could it be that shame is an
unequivocal sign of trauma? Would the healthy, happy and wise still
need
the intense fear of shame or self rejection as an impulse control
mechanism? Shall we throw out that baby, bathwater and all?
Best wishes,
Robert
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Chris Walsh <mailto:
chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Cristina
Sylvan Tomkins and his followers including Donald Nathanson are
the only people I know who define shame in a meaningful way when
they talk
about it. Without a definition much of the conversation about shame
ends up
being a series of misunderstandings where people are talking cross
purposes.
Tomkins describes shame as being a flattening emotion (or affect
to be precise) that makes us lose energy, makes us clumsy and stops
us from
thinking clearly. Despite that, like all of our emotions, it has
adaptive
value. It dampens our excitement when it is misdirected. There is a
linguistic clue to that when we look at the word "shameless".
Someone who is shameless is untrustworthy because they don't pay
any attention to social constraints. Shame is important for
socialisation
and fitting into groups. Of course it can be misused to beat people
into
shape but let's not commit the error of throwing out the baby with
the
bathwater.
It is interesting that Steve who is working with Asian cultures
raised this topic. Asian cultures are less individualistic and
prioritise
collective wellbeing. As such they treat shaming more delicately.
They are
very aware of it in the concept of "face". Saving face is extremely
important for the Chinese. Causing someone to lose face is a very
serious
matter.
Unfortunately we in the West have gone from ignoring shame to
demonising it - especially in therapeutic circles. As far as I am
concerned
that is still a very primitive response. Shame needs to be
integrated, to
be given a place and included and to be valued as an adaptive
emotion. Only
then can we have a healthy relationship with shame - Sounds like a
constellation doesn't it!
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425> +61 (0)3 9420 1425
<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/> www.cwalsh.com.au
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
