Muchas gracias,Ingala,
What might just be so is we are all imprisoned by different levels and forms of
karma and if Rchard Rohr is correct(Everything Belongs) and Miroslav Wolf
is(Exclusion and Embrace), then the principles of A Mindell(Deep Democracy of
Open Forums) would apply to internet experiences also. Here most profoundly the
myriad variations and permutations of our defense and awareness structures as
they collide and coalace with others are actually tracaeble and trackable, In a
sense, when it is said in non internet context"When the lesson is ready to be
learned, the teacher will arrive'' here we actually can see the stochastic
moments of insight and awareness emerging in print form.
But only if we have eyes to see "In the Middle of the Night"(Billy Joel).
Again, mucha gracias drj
Enneapsychodramatics
Dr.Joseph M. Pirone 2018033080
On Tuesday, January 29, 2008, at 05:22PM, "Ingala Robl Greis"
<ingalarobl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Joseph,
I feel you are right speaking about learning about ourselves and
about the others in this group, which brings us all closer.
Strangely enough even to Tom who set all this off. Yet, there were
different levels in learning, and Alison and Ed were targeted out so
strongly that it surely was more devastating for them. I admire their
strength in having taken in all this, having lived with this, having
processed their own "stuff", and still REMAINING as valued members of
our group, because we also know that leaving, fleeing, abandoing the
scene makes us weaker, and they have come back stronger - by staying
with us. And I feel we are also stronger as a group because they have
shown us their vulnerability and thus, their strength.
Anyhow, I agree with you that Chris should not carry the burden of
this type of decision-taking alone, and perhaps more ideas come up as
to manage such situacions in the future.
Best regardss,
Ingala
México
El 20/01/2008, a las 9:40, drjmpirone escribió:
Ingala..nice..and it just might be that the responses post his
exclusion have at least as much for each of us to learn from about
self other etc. as our projections onto him and his exclusion as
might have been grist for him. At times what is being spoken about
must have its voice raised not merely for the speaker to hear, but
above all for the hearers to hear the sounds of their own real
voices. Those deepest voices if heard appear sacred.
That said its a wonderful idea now that our group has grown to have
more than one person share the burden of deciding what I for one
hope is temporary exclusion. Back channeling by us
to the person themselves is another alternative. For now, it might
be an idea for us to consider his receiving these commentaries
without being able to respond for a period of time. Perhaps that
might also give each of us the opportunities to examine the slime
of our own countertransferences. Let he who is without
countertransference cast the first stone. I speak not here of the
initial exclusion, I speak of the results that followed. Thanks
again.joseph
Enneapsychodramatics
Dr.Joseph M. Pirone 2018033080
On Sunday, January 20, 2008, at 04:42AM, "Ingala Robl Greis"
<ingalarobl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Greetings to allTom:
I have several suggestions for this type of conduct by people like
was also
- We could form a Committee of Honour and Ethics, so that Chris
would not have to take this type of decision
- Once the page is up, we could use the poll-program so that
everybody could vote on this: leading to temporary exclusion
or total exclusion from the group, or whatever, which keeps the
lever off Chris also
- We could just let it be because everybody has a right to voice his/
her opinion, even those opinions we do not like and offend us, and
there are many people out in the world like this. Our motto is
inclusion. As several of you have mentioned: systemically, what Tom
wrote, tells more about Tom than about the people he wrote about,
Best greetings,
Ingala
El 18/01/2008, a las 14:22, Chris Walsh escribi?:
Hi all
This was a difficult decision and not based on this email alone. I
have
given Tom a series of private warnings before so my move would not
have been
a surprise to him. I in fact had used the option to stop him
sending emails
but it failed on this occasion. So the only options were to put up
with this
or exclude him for a while. Please note the words ?for a while? .
He does
have the possibility of returning if he apologises. If he does not
want to
do that then he is excluding himself.
I think Sheila made a very good point that Tom deserves the
feedback from
the group post exclusion. I will forward that to him. It is easy to
forward
you own emails to him as I have done here by copying him in.
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
webpage: www.cwalsh.com.au
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Anita Roy
Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 5:54 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Tom Melleltt
There are many ways to do set boundaries, and I appreciate that
Chris was in
a difficult spot and had to take measures. In light of recent
discussions re
breastfeeding and parenting, I am thinking what an appropriate
boundary
might be within a family or yahoogroup.
Suspension is a form of alienation. It is like sending a kid to his
room,
but he/she is still in the house, so not "thrown out". However,
that still
causes the child to feel separate and abandoned, and not part of
the family.
I once had a foster child, and if she had raging tantrums in the
living
room, she did have to go to her room, but I went with her, to
alleviate the
component of abandonment. It was preferable for her to stay in the
living
room, but with me or my husband containing her physical and verbal
violent
outbursts. This also alleviated the component of secret goings on
in the
living room when she wasn't there. The containment, and discussion
of her
behaviour were not secret, and transparency to everyone. This
foreducational for my own kids, as they saw the process and learned
from it.
So in that spirit, I would recommend inclusion in the group for
Mellett, but
his postings should be put on moderation as YahooGroups allows, and
if they
are considered inappropriate by Chris who is responsible for the
overall
well being of the group, then they simply shouldn'tt be approved
explore ifbroadcast. On good behaviour after any number of months deemed
appropriate,
Mellett could go back to "unmoderated" status.
Sincerely
Anita Roy
On 18/01/2008, Paul Chung <paulchung@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:paulchung%40paulchung.com.hk> > wrote:
like to
Dear all,
I want to explore further from a systemic point of view. I would
know if Chris has to right to set up a constellation to
after the"suspension" is the best solution for the interest of the group?While the
"group' also include Tom, does he has to right to mediate /regulate in
thea view to
constellation if he detects entanglement between Tom & Bert with
benefit the group. "Has the right" does not imply "has to drive".to have
I support Chris to blow the whistle. I would further support Tom
the
access to read what is going on with the rest of the group
whichsuspension. Again "have the access" does not imply he "has theinterest".
are the
To me, Tom's email, as well as Bert's new style in recent years,
best arrangement or the fate of the SC community. "Yes, that'sright"
out from
In Chinese medicine, we give ways for the heat in fever to pass
theis when
body rather than to "stop" or "neutralise" it. A typical example
a baby or small child has fever, we'd rub our hands with medicineoil to
heat before placing it over the baby's feet to direct the heatfrom there.
Or we mop the baby's body with warm wet towel to drain away theheat as
theworld
water evaporates from the body. While some people in the western
willFrom our
place ice cube / pad over the baby's forehead to keep it "cool".
perspective, more heat will drain away from the "cooled" foreheadand the
brain cell may be damaged if the baby has a high temperature. Weconsider
directing the heat away with warm wet towel or heated palm overthe feet
are<levye%40rcn.com>>:
much safer.
Paul responding from Hong Kong,
a place where eastern & western culture conglomerate
2008/1/18, Ed Levy <levye@xxxxxxx <mailto:levye%40rcn.com>
Chris,
Thanks for addressing the issue of Tom's inflammable speech,
worldwide FCdoesn'tstarved need
suit the purpose of this forum or meet his own seemingly
for<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
attention and contact. I hope he finds both in a healthier way.
Ed Levy
_____
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>]<tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com><tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com>
On Behalf Of Chris Walsh
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:38 AM
To: tmasthenes13@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com>
chance toSubject: FW: [ConstellationTalk] When Bert finally croaks . .
Dear Tom,
I'm sorry but this email of yours is totally over the top and
inappropriate.
Accordingly I have removed you from the list to give you a
coolappropriate
your heals and reflect.
You can reapply to join the group in two months if you make
Alisonapologies to the people you insulted in your email especially
Rose40yahoogroups.com>
Levy, Ed Levy Ed Lynch and Bert Hellinger.
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
webpage: www.cwalsh.com.au
From: ConstellationTalk@ <mailto:ConstellationTalk%
40yahoogroups.com>yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@ ;<mailto:ConstellationTalk%
40yahoogroups.com>yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tmasthenes13
Sent: Friday, 18 January 2008 7:51 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@ <mailto:ConstellationTalk%
"belongsyahoogroups.com
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] When Bert finally croaks . .
Greetings to one and all! As the "Phantom Constellator" who
by not belonging," I just dropped in "to see what condition my
condition was in" and to offer my contribution to the
says, wefinallycommunity when our esteemed Father Anton Suitbert Hellinger
croaks.
I choose to describe this future event with a cheeky (actually
throaty!) English slang verb for dying because, as Jesus
"croch"be adon't know the hour of our passing, and ole' Bert might live to
kicks offhundred! Hell, the sonofabitch might outlive me!!!
But the actuarial tables predict otherwise, so odds are, he
postingbefore I do. Therefore, I need a way for you all to stamp this
referenceinto your memories and contact me when Bert's time is up and he
sojourns to that Great Constellation in the sky.
[for those subscribers whose first language is not English, the
etymology of the word "croak" meaning "to die" is either a
person'sto the frog-like sound of the "death rattle" emitted as the
last breath on the deathbed, or else the Irish Gaelic verb
on ameaning "to hang" --- not only with a rope but also to "hang
obsessivelycross," i.e. "to crucify."]
Here's my offering. For the last few weeks I have been
elegy songsinging the moving and stirring German military requiem/
message/Birthday Bashthat Bert had requested to be sung at his 2006 Bavarian
Decemberas Max Dauskardt reported to us in his posting #3009 dated
18, 2006. Click here to read Max's post
http://health.
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/ ;
envision3009>
Goodgroups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/3009
The song is known either by its title: "Mein guter Kamerad" (My
comrade.)Comrade)
or its opening line, "Ich hatte einen Kameraden" (I once had a
history:
Here's an English Wikipedia entry for the song, its use and
http://en.wikipedia ;<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_hatte_einen_Kameraden>
.org/wiki/Ich_hatte_einen_Kameraden
I possess a very good and booming Irish tenor voice and I
Germansinging this hymn at whatever memorial service for Bert we will
organize in Southern California.
(I would also recite his poem to Adolf Hitler in both his
Perhapschorus, butoriginal and in my English translation.)
Ideally, the Comrade elegy should be sung by a large men's
I'm able to sing for ten men in case I have to sing solo.
conferencethis notice might inspire other men to form a chorus.
I'd be willing to travel to any constellation center or
constellations!during the one year of official mourning for our beloved father
figure. What a way to set the mood for any and all
when theHope you have enough floor space for all the horizontal
representatives you'll have!
(I can see it now. You know that point in a constellation
process.rep's knees start buckling as they get ready to drop dead? Hey,
sometimes it's the most comfortable position in the whole
died!)up toI've actually fallen asleep as rep on the floor, only to wake
the facilitator needing to convince me that I had actually
the twowinemaster, "Over
Also, we should be proactive and consult our erudite
Easy" Eddie Lynch, who should be able to provide cases of
message/Sophievintage wines: Bert Nouveau and Bert Classique. (Isn't there a
2007Liebfraumilch vintage as well?)
Check Ed Lynch's wine review in this posting #3550 of August 4,
http://health.
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/ ;
Levy3550>
groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/3550
Oh, I just had a thought! Alison, perhaps you and your Eddie
Jewishcould provide some kosher wine, maybe Mogen David for the
vintages!representatives. We'll need both perpetrator and victim
minutes
All of the following You Tube videos are no longer than 3
v=IVpM8OPixds>the samelong. Some are just 2 minutes long. Each and every one plays
tempomen's choral rendition of the song at a slow requiem or elegiac
tempo--- except for [3] which moves at the very stirring faster
in theof a battle hymn. [5] has best sound quality.
Do watch all 8 videos as they are not duplicates of each other
shortchosen photos or movie clips of the German soldiers. I give a
expresses adescription of each video.
Tom Mellett
Van Nuys, CA
==================================
(B/W = Black and White)
[1] Color still photos with German sub-titles. Each photo
line of the song
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=IVpM8OPixdscom/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=6pj2EE5WNkw><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds&;> &>
sequencecom/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds&> &
[2] B/W still photos, with English translation of each line in
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=qpMPUgaEEXQ>com/watch?v=6pj2EE5WNkw
[3] B/W & colorized MOVIE CLIPS, sung at very UPBEAT TEMPO
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=2lhxf6ygz0c>shooting,com/watch?v=qpMPUgaEEXQ
[4] Actual B/W MOVIE CLIPS of soldiers marching, deploying,
etc.
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=2lhxf6ygz0ccom/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=tq94CsnSIFo><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c&NR=1> &NR=1>
com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c&NR=1> &NR=1
[5] Good color still photos, no words, but BEST SOUND QUALITY!
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=tq94CsnSIFocom/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
scenes of<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo&;> &>
com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo&> &
=======================================
[6] Posted by German. B/W still photos, all corpses or
v=24ssJzAtlD0>destruction
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=1lh_mJzDrC8>caringcom/watch?v=24ssJzAtlD0
[7] Posted by German. B/W still photos, almost all are living
for wounded.
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=1lh_mJzDrC8com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=fWQBSbkaTQI><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8&NR=1> &NR=1>
situationscom/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8&NR=1> &NR=1
[8] B/W still photos, no corpses, only positive military
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
v=fWQBSbkaTQIcom/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch? ;
be no<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI&NR=1> &NR=1>
musiccom/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI&NR=1> &NR=1
===============================
(Poem written in 1809 by German poet Ludwig Uhland and set to
by Swiss composer Friedrich Silcher in 1825)
=====================
Ich hatt' einen Kameraden,
Einen bessern findst du nit.
Die Trommel schlug zum Streite,
Er ging an meiner Seite
In gleichem Schritt und Tritt.
In gleichem Schritt und Tritt.
Eine Kugel kam geflogen,
Gilt's mir oder gilt es dir?
Ihn hat es weggerissen,
Er liegt mir vor den F??en,
Als w?r's ein St?ck von mir.
Als w?r's ein St?ck von mir.
Will mir die Hand noch reichen,
Derweil ich eben lad.
Kann dir die Hand nicht geben,
Bleib du im ew'gen Leben
Mein guter Kamerad!
Mein guter Kamerad!
======================
My literal translation:
-------------------------
I once had a comrade
You will never find a better one!
The drums beat for battle.
He went right at my side
with equal gait and stride.
with equal gait and stride.
A bullet came flying
Meant for me or meant for you?
It tore him apart
He lies at my feet
As if he was a piece of me.
As if he was a piece of me.
He still wants to give me his hand
All the while I am reloading:
"I cannot give you my hand!
So stay in eternal life,
My good Comrade,
My good Comrade!"
============================================
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
When a great ship is in harbor and moored, it is safe, there can
doubt. But that is not what great ships are built for.
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Yahoo! Groups Links
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