MessageRouggia,
I have some thoughts on the subject of contempt for the opposite sex I wanted
to share, and I also look forward to Bertold's answer.
From my training and experience, I don't believe that all women have contempt
for men or all men have contempt for women. It depends on their view of their
opposite sex parent and how they were treated as children. Especially important
are the ages of 7 and 14. If a girl's father squashed all her opinions,
instincts, ambitions and interests, not to mention abuse, she will hate men,
rather than respect them. If a boy's father treats his wife like that, or if he
is abused by his mother, he will learn to hate women, rather than cherish them.
Since everything is in degrees, or shades of grey, to the extent that these
things happen is the extent to which men and women have contempt for each
other. I think the word "contempt" would be reserved for the very worst abusive
parenting, and that most people don't have that deep of a negative emotion
toward the opposite sex.
Being a daddy's girl means the girl can manipulate her father. A strong man
will not let a child manipulate him and this will teach a girl to respect men.
A momma's boy does not have a strong male influence in his life and does not
make the switch at age 7 and 14 to move from his identification from the mother
to the father. Traumas, such as the early death of a father, may trigger his
instinct as a male to take care of his mother. To become otherwise takes some
sort of intervention, such as counseling or constellation for the person to see
how they got there.
Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message -----
From: Rouqqia Hussain
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Bertold
I deeply appreciate your expanding on my understanding, more than anything I
want to understand more but I don't know German and I don't work as a
therapist.
I feel this layer of contempt is very true for all women and men. It makes
sense and tells me that I need to listen to myself for the truth as well as
hear it from people at the level of Bert.
The thing is, how does one develop on from being a daddy's girl and having
contempt for men ( and vice versa for men)?
And, are these the main things to focus on in one's development to become a
mature individual capable of serving people well and being a contributing
member of society?
Best
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: 11 January 2005 16:14
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Rouqqia,
I would like to complete the words of Bert about alcoholics.
In my experience there is a layer in every woman of despise against men -
out of loyalty in the long row of all the women.
(And vice versa, the men share common feelings - I think fear it the most
common and hidden.)
I had a constellation where the grandfather drunk himself to death but the
grandmother, the third wife after the first two had died, was full of love
towards him. I found it very important for the grandchild client who had
difficulties with man to bring to light also the layer of anger and contempt in
the grandmother. I proposed her the sentences "I love you very much. And when
you home drunken at night and stink out of the mouth, deep down there are
hatred and contempt." The representative felt the sentences true.
If a woman marries an alcoholic she must have a certain loyalty to a woman
in her back. And she does not only share the attraction towards an alcoholic or
drug addict but also the anger and the contempt. This makes it as difficult for
a woman to respect such a man as it is difficult for a man to drop alcohol.
They are in the same boat.
Hello All
I recently went to a Bert Hellinger workshop and he was working with an
alcoholic. Bert said that alcoholics generally marry women who despise them.
They desperately need those women to respect them to get better, but invariably
the women won't do this because they despise men in general.
The alcoholic was married to a sweet faced multiple sclerosis sufferer,
ie a murderer.
Regards
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Sent: 10 January 2005 17:59
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Diane,
I want to give just some ideas of mine. I do not work often with the
subject of alcohol. But when it comes I find it useful in the constellation to
give a sentence what the alcohol does good to someone.
F. e:"Drinking helps me not to feel my pain/my anger/my guilt" (and so
on).
Or if somebody becomes violent with alcohol: "Drinking helps me to come
out with my anger." Or: "I drunk myself to death." So I try to find the right
context and by naming it, it becomes a little relief and more understandable.
Bertold
Thank you Sheila. I agree. What prompted the question is I had talked
to someone a year ago about getting involved in a recovery program, which never
happened. I saw an opportunity again this week and was wondering whether to
pursue it.
I remember one constellation where generations back a boy was
molested by his uncle. His father found out and killed the uncle and the boy
was not allowed to talk about it. He became an alcoholic, and so did his son
and grandson, who was the client's father, and the client married an alcoholic.
I guess what I meant by success was working within a program and
being accepted by the counselors and directors of the program.
Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message -----
From: sheila saunders
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
I have not worked specifically with someone regarding alcoholism.
However, this question "Has anyone had experience or success with..." is to my
mind, 2 completely separate questions. Many facilitators have worked with
alcolholic clients. Bert has worked with so many in fact, that he was able to
provide the general observation that "alcoholics miss their father". I see
alcoholism as just another symptom like "I can't keep a job" or "I've always
felt depressed", and would work on it within the constellation of the family.
As far as "success" goes, I feel my attachment to "helping" or "changing"
someone when I find myself thinking in those terms. I have no idea what
"success" means to anyone, and I approach a constellation only with a spirit of
discovery. How the discovered information may be used in the workings of
another's life, is beyond what I actively explore. Sometimes a former client
lets me know, and I do invite them to do so after a time passes, and if they
feel so inclined. I consider myself succcessful in this work when I remain
attentive to "what is", to what is being revealed by the field. I feel
successful when I have had the courage to say what I see. I feel successful
when a group gathers together in which I can show the strength and integrity of
this work.
I found one reference to alcoholism in Bert's book Supporting Love,
:
Participant: My husband is an alcoholic. I can't stay with someone
who threatens me and is dependent on alcohol.
Hellinger: Yes, I think you're right. When one partner has a
problem, such as alcoholism, he or she can't demand that the partner stay. He
or she has to carry the consequences. If you confront him with the problem and
say, "I'm leaving the alcohol problem with you and I'm going," perhaps he can
change. He will carry the responsibility alone and get strength from that. It
won't help him for you to stay with him.
Just a few thoughts, Diane.
All the best in the New Year!! sheila
Sheila Saunders, RN, MFT
Systemic Family Solutions
sheila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.systemicfamilysolutions.com
Great Smokies Medical Center of Asheville
1312 Patton Ave. Asheville, NC. 28806
828-273-5015
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