Dear Rouqqia,
it is far fetched to say a person who suffers
multiple sclerosis is
automatically a murderer.
Melody
At 04:25 11/01/05 +0000, you wrote:
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office">
Dear Bertold
I deeply appreciate your expanding on my understanding, more than anything I want to understand more but I don't know German and I don't work as a therapist.
I feel this layer of contempt is very true for all women and men. It makes sense and tells me that I need to listen to myself for the truth as well as hear it from people at the level of Bert.
The thing is, how does one develop on from being a daddy's girl and having contempt for men ( and vice versa for men)?
And, are these the main things to focus on in one's development to become a mature individual capable of serving people well and being a contributing member of society?
Best
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 11 January 2005 16:14
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Rouqqia,
I would like to complete the words of Bert about alcoholics.
In my experience there is a layer in every woman of despise against men - out of loyalty in the long row of all the women.
(And vice versa, the men share common feelings - I think fear it the most common and hidden.)
I had a constellation where the grandfather drunk himself to death but the grandmother, the third wife after the first two had died, was full of love towards him. I found it very important for the grandchild client who had difficulties with man to bring to light also the layer of anger and contempt in the grandmother. I proposed her the sentences I love you very much. And when you home drunken at night and stink out of the mouth, deep down there are hatred and contempt. The representative felt the sentences true.
If a woman marries an alcoholic she must have a certain loyalty to a woman in her back. And she does not only share the attraction towards an alcoholic or drug addict but also the anger and the contempt. This makes it as difficult for a woman to respect such a man as it is difficult for a man to drop alcohol. They are in the same boat.
Hello All
I recently went to a Bert Hellinger workshop and he was working with an alcoholic. Bert said that alcoholics generally marry women who despise them. They desperately need those women to respect them to get better, but invariably the women won't do this because they despise men in general.
The alcoholic was married to a sweet faced multiple sclerosis sufferer, ie a murderer.
Regards
Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 10 January 2005 17:59
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Diane,
I want to give just some ideas of mine. I do not work often with the subject of alcohol. But when it comes I find it useful in the constellation to give a sentence what the alcohol does good to someone.
F. e: Drinking helps me not to feel my pain/my anger/my guilt (and so on).
Or if somebody becomes violent with alcohol: Drinking helps me to come out with my anger. Or: I drunk myself to death. So I try to find the right context and by naming it, it becomes a little relief and more understandable.
<mailto:Bertold@xxxxxxxxxxx>Bertold
Thank you Sheila. I agree. What prompted the question is I had talked to someone a year ago about getting involved in a recovery program, which never happened. I saw an opportunity again this week and was wondering whether to pursue it.
I remember one constellation where generations back a boy was molested by his uncle. His father found out and killed the uncle and the boy was not allowed to talk about it. He became an alcoholic, and so did his son and grandson, who was the client's father, and the client married an alcoholic.
I guess what I meant by success was working within a program and being accepted by the counselors and directors of the program.
Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:peacefulcentre@xxxxxxxxxxx>sheila saunders
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
I have not worked specifically with someone regarding alcoholism. However, this question "Has anyone had experience or success with..." is to my mind, 2 completely separate questions. Many facilitators have worked with alcolholic clients. Bert has worked with so many in fact, that he was able to provide the general observation that "alcoholics miss their father". I see alcoholism as just another symptom like "I can't keep a job" or "I've always felt depressed", and would work on it within the constellation of the family. As far as "success" goes, I feel my attachment to "helping" or "changing" someone when I find myself thinking in those terms. I have no idea what "success" means to anyone, and I approach a constellation only with a spirit of discovery. How the discovered information may be used in the workings of another's life, is beyond what I actively explore. Sometimes a former client lets me know, and I do invite them to do so after a time passes, and if they feel so inclined. I consider myself succcessful in this work when I remain attentive to "what is", to what is being revealed by the field. I feel successful when I have had the courage to say what I see. I feel successful when a group gathers together in which I can show the strength and integrity of this work.
I found one reference to alcoholism in Bert's book Supporting Love, :
Participant: My husband is an alcoholic. I can't stay with someone who threatens me and is dependent on alcohol.
Hellinger: Yes, I think you're right. When one partner has a problem, such as alcoholism, he or she can't demand that the partner stay. He or she has to carry the consequences. If you confront him with the problem and say, "I'm leaving the alcohol problem with you and I'm going," perhaps he can change. He will carry the responsibility alone and get strength from that. It won't help him for you to stay with him.
Just a few thoughts, Diane.
All the best in the New Year!! sheila
Sheila Saunders, RN, MFT
Systemic Family Solutions
<mailto:sheila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>sheila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.systemicfamilysolutions.com
Great Smokies Medical Center of Asheville
1312 Patton Ave. Asheville, NC. 28806
828-273-5015
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