Re: [ConstellationTalk] contempt for opposite sex

  • From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx
  • To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: 12 Jan 2005 17:03 GMT

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Rouggia, I do not claim to be right – so I just share my thoughts and insights out of the constellations I did. Because the subject between man and women is so enormous big ( I wrote a whole book about it – in German) I just give some short statements.

There is an old battle going on between the sexes. Man, by their physical power, suppressed the women in the families and the women, naturally, pay back. One of the weapons is contempt. And because this story is not so far away – and in some parts of the world still going on – also the actual generation of women deep down carries something of that anger and frustration with their fore-mothers. It is in a way normal and natural and by discovering it and accepting it, something may relax. (And if somebody does not see it in him or herself, it can be helpful to ask the partner – specially after a divorce)

In constellations you may discover many layers of the relationship between men and women: love, longing, frustration, pain, anger, hatred, contempt. The clearer one of these layers becomes present the sharper you may name it. So, in my constellation also very “normal” couples may at some point come to strong, intense and not always nice feelings

If somebody is a daddy’s girl the healing power comes through the connection with the mother – but from the role of the child and not of the rival. So honouring sincerely the mother in a constellation is very helpful.

To become a mature individual there are many more things but this starting point seems to me very helpful.

Bertold

Rouggia, I have some thoughts on the subject of contempt for the opposite sex I wanted to share, and I also look forward to Bertold's answer.   From my training and experience, I don't believe that all women have contempt for men or all men have contempt for women. It depends on their view of their opposite sex parent and how they were treated as children. Especially important are the ages of 7 and 14. If a girl's father squashed all her opinions, instincts, ambitions and interests, not to mention abuse, she will hate men, rather than respect them. If a boy's father treats his wife like that, or if he is abused by his mother, he will learn to hate women, rather than cherish them. Since everything is in degrees, or shades of grey, to the extent that these things happen is the extent to which men and women have contempt for each other. I think the word "contempt" would be reserved for the very worst abusive parenting, and that most people don't have that deep of a negative emotion toward the opposite sex.   Being a daddy's girl means the girl can manipulate her father. A strong man will not let a child manipulate him and this will teach a girl to respect men. A momma's boy does not have a strong male influence in his life and does not make the switch at age 7 and 14 to move from his identification from the mother to the father. Traumas, such as the early death of a father, may trigger his instinct as a male to take care of his mother. To become otherwise takes some sort of intervention, such as counseling or constellation for the person to see how they got there. Diane Yankelevitz  
----- Original Message ----- From: Rouqqia Hussain To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:25 AM Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism
Dear Bertold   I deeply appreciate your expanding on my understanding, more than anything I want to understand more but I don't know German and I don't work as a therapist. I feel this layer of contempt is very true for all women and men. It makes sense and tells me that I need to listen to myself for the truth as well as hear it from people at the level of Bert. The thing is, how does one develop on from being a daddy's girl and having contempt for men ( and vice versa for men)? And, are these the main things to focus on in one's development to become a mature individual capable of serving people well and being a contributing member of society?   Best   Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 11 January 2005 16:14
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism

Dear Rouqqia,

I would like to complete the words of Bert about alcoholics.

In my experience there is a layer in every woman of despise against men - out of loyalty in the long row of all the women.

(And vice versa, the men share common feelings -  I think fear it the most common and hidden.)

I had a constellation where the grandfather drunk himself to death but the grandmother, the third wife after the first two had died, was full of love towards him. I found it very important for the grandchild client who had difficulties with man to bring to light also the layer of anger and contempt in the grandmother. I proposed her the sentences  “I love you very much. And when you home drunken at night and stink out of the mouth, deep down there are hatred and contempt.” The representative felt the sentences true.

If a woman marries an alcoholic she must have a certain loyalty to a woman in her back. And she does not only share the attraction towards an alcoholic or drug addict but also the anger and the contempt. This makes it as difficult for a woman to respect such a man as it is difficult for a man to drop alcohol. They are in the same boat.
Hello All   I recently went to a Bert Hellinger workshop and he was working with an alcoholic. Bert said that alcoholics generally marry women who despise them. They desperately need those women to respect them to get better, but invariably the women won't do this because they despise men in general.   The alcoholic was married to a sweet faced multiple sclerosis sufferer, ie a murderer.   Regards   Rouqqia
-----Original Message-----
From: bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bertold.ulsamer@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 10 January 2005 17:59
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism

Dear Diane,

I want to give just some ideas of mine. I do not work often with the subject of alcohol. But when it comes I find it useful in the constellation to give a sentence what the alcohol does good to someone.

F. e:”Drinking helps me not to feel my pain/my anger/my guilt” (and so on).

Or if somebody becomes violent with alcohol: “Drinking helps me to come out with my anger.” Or: “I drunk myself to death.” So I try to find the right context and by naming it, it becomes a little relief and more understandable.

Bertold

Thank you Sheila. I agree. What prompted the question is I had talked to someone a year ago about getting involved in a recovery program, which never happened. I saw an opportunity again this week and was wondering whether to pursue it.   I remember one constellation where generations back a boy was molested by his uncle. His father found out and killed the uncle and the boy was not allowed to talk about it. He became an alcoholic, and so did his son and grandson, who was the client's father, and the client married an alcoholic.   I guess what I meant by success was working within a program and being accepted by the counselors and directors of the program. Diane Yankelevitz
----- Original Message ----- From: sheila saunders To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] alcoholism

I have not worked specifically with someone regarding alcoholism. However, this question "Has anyone had experience or success with..." is to my mind, 2 completely separate questions.  Many facilitators have worked with alcolholic clients. Bert has worked with so many in fact, that he was able to provide the general observation that "alcoholics miss their father". I see alcoholism as just another symptom like "I can't keep a job" or "I've always felt depressed", and would work on it within the constellation of the family.  As far as "success" goes, I feel my attachment to "helping" or "changing" someone when I find myself thinking in those terms.  I have no idea what "success" means to anyone, and I approach a constellation only with a spirit of discovery.  How the discovered information may be used in the workings of another's life, is beyond what I actively explore. Sometimes a former client lets me know, and I do invite them to do so after a time passes, and if they feel so inclined. I consider myself succcessful in this work when I remain attentive to "what is", to what is being revealed by the field. I feel successful when I have had the courage to say what I see.  I feel successful when a group gathers together in which I can show the strength and integrity of this work.

I found one reference to alcoholism in Bert's book Supporting Love, :

Participant: My husband is an alcoholic. I can't stay with someone who threatens me and is dependent on alcohol.

Hellinger: Yes, I think you're right.  When one partner has a problem, such as alcoholism, he or she can't demand that the partner stay.  He or she has to carry the consequences. If you confront him with the problem and say, "I'm leaving the alcohol problem with you and I'm going," perhaps he can change.  He will carry the responsibility alone and get strength from that.  It won't help him for you to stay with him. 

Just a few thoughts, Diane.

All the best in the New Year!! sheila

Sheila Saunders, RN, MFT Systemic Family Solutions sheila@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.systemicfamilysolutions.com Great Smokies Medical Center of Asheville 1312 Patton Ave.   Asheville, NC. 28806 828-273-5015
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Dr. Bertold Ulsamer Runzstr. 48 79102 Freiburg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically
stated.
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Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the
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