[duxuser] Re: Dilema, How to Train Sighted Staff to Do Braille using DBT

  • From: "George Bell" <george@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:42:31 +0100

Hi Sylvie,

When I saw you were at Hiawatha Place, I almost wondered if
you were a partner of Betsy's way out in the middle of the
Pacific.

But who cares?  Braille is more International than we all
think.

I'm going to reply to your message after each of the points
you raised. I have added a number in front of your paragraph
for our own benefit, and anyone who cares to comment.  (I'm
sure to have made some mistakes, as I think I'm human too! -
Smile!)

> 1) if the document contains the symbol for number (that is
#) directly before an actual number, it will come out in
braille having two number signs, which is very annoying for
a braille reader (at least this one). 

This is true, and I have asked those who look after the
Braille Rule files at Duxbury to look into how, for example,
"Apt #5" appears.

2) If the document contains the symbol for underline (that
is ___) to denote lines where people were supposed to write
by hand, to give answers to questions, etc. it will come out
with a series of dot 4 and dot 6, not a line at all, and
very messy looking to me, as well as being often confusing
to students.

Oh how I agree with you here.  Perhaps we need some logic in
DBT which says, "Hey, I've just seem 3 or 4 consecutive
underline characters, this sounds like a print only
function?"

But where do we go from there?

3) If the document contains curly apostrophes, they will
come out in braille as open quotes followed by a letter sign
and then the letter s or the letter t, or whatever the
letter following the apostrophe happens to be. 

Now this is an issue which I hope will be knocked on the
head, once and for all, in the new version of DBT.  It is
largely historical and partly to do with Word and whether or
not "Straight quotes to Smartquotes" is turned on in Word.

4) phone numbers aren't properly grouped and end up at the
end of the braille text line, the second part of the phone
number after the hyphen will often appear on the next line
without a number sign before it. 

Looking at this, how do you tell what is a telephone number,
or a string of numbers with a space?  Easy (assumption) in
America.  But, for example, mine in the UK is +44 1604
792777

Perhaps we could do a USA thing, 3 numbers, plus 3 numbers,
plus 4 numbers.  Oh yes, that's a telephone number!  Of
course there would have to be a space between them.  But
then some have dashes between them.  And off we go again!

5) I have also seen headers that run into the page numbers
and knock out the page number, so that only the "a through
j"  appear at the end of the last word of the header, rather
than having a space and a number sign before the letters
that stand for the numbers.

Now if you have found this happen with DBT, then it's a bug
in DBT. All I can ask is that you get sample files up to
Duxbury as soon as possible.  This is serious, but I have to
say that it is not a problem I've seen before.  (Unless it
is with a very, very old version of DBT)

6) As I proofread things produced by people who don't use
braille, I am constantly finding new things of this sort to
deal with. And, I even find them when proofreading Documents
that I produce myself. But, at least, I can correct my own
work rather than just asking students to wing it.

I hear you, loud and clear.  I had a case, not so long ago,
with someone from a University on your West coast.  Some odd
character kept cropping up.  It drove us both crazy for a
while.  Eventually we tracked it down to a Unicode character
which essentially was being used as a Bullet Point.

All I can say Sylvie, is stick in there.  We are here.  And
there is no such thing here as a stupid question!

And can I just add that while I am not a Duxbury employee -
though many do wonder - it is really truly appreciated when
"funnies" are found and reported.

Duxbury do strive to produce the most accurate braille
possible, albeit in the strictest sense of the rules for
Braille.  They make no compromise in that regard.

Having said that, I am reminded of a good friend in Poland,
who joked to me that a Polish Committee of two, would get a
majority of three.

Figure that on your own.  (Big smile)

George Bell.


Sylvie Kashdan 
Instructor/Curriculum Coordinator
KAIZEN PROGRAM for New English Learners with Visual
Limitations
810-A Hiawatha Place South
Seattle, WA  98144
phone:  (206) 784-5619
email:  kaizen_esl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Bell" <george@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 1:55 PM
Subject: [duxuser] Re: Dilema, How to Train Sighted Staff to
Do Braille
using DBT


Hi Ray,

A lot of people are going to hate me for saying this,
probably including you, but if you present DBT with a well
prepared Word document, you are probably 95% of the way
there - and without knowing more than the basics of braille
and DBT.

But of course, as is usual, money can be found for training
one person in how to use DBT, and correct all the mess ups
untrained Word users make, but nobody can find 10 minutes to
show a group of Word users a few tricks which will make
everyone's life easier.

I could write a book on how not to use word, to cause the
maximum chaos in a braille document.

Indeed I wish I had the time to be able to go into an
organisation, spend 2 hours, at no cost to the organisation,
just looking at how word processing is done.  My bet is that
I could offer training, which would save at least 5 times
what I charged.

But alas, all I can say is that with your stated
credentials, I'm sure you know this already.

George Bell.


-----Original Message-----
From: duxuser-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:duxuser-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ray E.
Campbell, DCIL
Sent: 22 April 2003 17:44
To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi All:

I am currently working for a Center for Independent Living
here in DuPage County, Illinois.  We have a Juliet Pro
Braille Embosser and run DBT.  As an expert Braille reader
and technology guru, I've learned how to use DBT to produce
some Braille materials for our center such as newsletters
and flyers.  Here is where I need help.

I would like to know of successful strategies any of you
have used to teach other staff who are not familiar with
Braille how to format Braille.  I don't want the staff here
to always depend on me to do their Braille for them.  In
particular, our Deaf Services Coordinator has a consumer who
is deafblind and she needs to be able to generate
information in Braille for her.  Currently, if I am not
available to do it, she has to wait for me to run the
Braille for her.

What works as strategies for training sighted staff to run
materials in Braille?  Are there people in the Chicago area
that any of you know of who could come in and give our staff
an in-service on how to produce Braille?
Are there good handbooks and materials we could obtain for
our staff to help them understand how to format things in
Braille using DBT?

Any help or ideas any of you have will be appreciated.

Ray Campbell, Independent Living Skills Coordinator, Visual
Services DuPage Center for Independent Living 630-469-2300
(V), 630-469-2606 (F) raydcil@xxxxxxx

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