[bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

  • From: "Gerald Hovas" <GeraldHovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:04:31 -0500

Evan,

Hmmm.  I'm not sure making the claim that double hyphens need to be put in
there for students, or beginning Braille readers, is a legitimate reason ,
because I would expect all BRF readers to be proficient enough to read the
books or use speech until their skills improve enough to do so.  A case
might even be made that the number of people who are tackling the BRF books
without being proficient in Braille is possibly about the same as the number
of people who have a print disability other than blindness, and your
viewpoint seems to say that these people aren't important enough to worry
about and that we shouldn't tailor a book for such a small minority.  Better
come up with a better reason if you want to justify using the double hyphen.
Still, until Bookshare feels strong enough about the issue to reject books
where em dashes have been changed to double hyphens, though, I'm not sure a
justification other than it looks better in BRF is needed.  Keep in mind,
however, that Jim has stated that Bookshare has made a commitment to
publishers and authors to work to bring the scanned texts closer to the
original text, and has stated that he'd rather focus on improving the
Duxbury output rather than tailoring the uploaded file to optimize for BRF
books.

With this in mind, the Tech Advisor Group, or at least some of us in the
group, will try to convince Bookshare to go ahead and make an Engineering
change to resolve the issue.  I'm hoping at some point that Engineering will
be able to put in a filter to substitute a space for a tab, generic quotes
for opening and closing quotes, three periods for an ellipsis character,
etc. before running a book through the Braille translator.  I also hope that
at the same time a filter can be added to substitute a space for a tab, em
dash for a double hyphen, etc. in the DAISY books.  I'd also like to see
this happen before Bookshare finishes modifying the tools to support NIMAS,
because I wouldn't be surprised to see them rerun the entire collection back
through the new tools after that point in order to make the entire
collection NIMAS compliant.  That's what I would do at that point if I were
them.

BTW, I don't think flattening the books, as you've called it, occurs during
Braille translation.  I believe it's due to converting a book to a format
that is specified by DAISY and that the BRF books are produced by converting
the text from the DAISY book to BRF.  In any case, the flattening is not
unique to BRF.  It also occurs in the DAISY books.  If the flattening is due
to supporting DAISY, however, then I would expect the DAISY spec to allow
for Lissi's case, and at some point in the future, DAISY books should mature
enough to comply with the full DAISY spec, at which time, I would hope that
the collection would be rerun through the upgraded tools and that Lissi's
hard work would be evident.  That would probably require some help from
Duxbury, though, to make the work evident in the BRF books.

HTH

Gerald


-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:36 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?

Thanks, Gerald.  As I've said before, it's not a huge deal, but I do feel 
more strongly about it perhaps than many other people, because I read 
Bookshare books in Braille, and I am one of those "deranged perfectionists" 
that inhabit the volunteer list.  I wonder how many other people actually 
care about the issue at all.  However, I was surprised to find a number of 
people on the list supporting my viewpoint, and one at least for a reason I 
hadn't thought of, that is the one post someone sent about students.  I 
imagine you've read it.

Considering the current discussion involving Lissi's book and how most of 
the formatting she worked hard to preserve will be munched by the Braille 
translator, I feel, and I am sure that at least some others feel, that this 
idea of not using double dashes - at least until a better solution is found 
for Braille readers - is rather a small issue compared to what happens to 
books with formatting more complicated than a continuous flow of paragraphs 
as in the average book.

Thanks, again.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gerald Hovas" <GeraldHovas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:13 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?


> Evan,
>
> The tip is from Sarah Van Oosterwijck, but I helped her clean it up and 
> say
> what she wanted to say.  I suggested that she not include the part about
> changing - to a double hyphen for the reasons that Pratik and Jake gave, 
> but
> Sarah felt strong about it, so she put it in.
>
> As part of helping Sarah with her tip,  I spoke to Engineering about the
> issues, explained the problems, and offered a solution.  I received a 
> reply
> saying that the explanations were excellent and that the solution would be
> easy to implement.  It is on their list of things to do, but Benetech's
> Engineering doesn't assign the priority for changes, they only work on
> changes authorized by Bookshare since the funds for changes must come out 
> of
> Bookshare's budgget.  I've also forwarded the correspondence to Jennifer 
> so
> that it will also get on the list of changes to fund.  Jake and I plan to
> discuss the list of changes that the bksvol-discuss list has proposed now
> that we're both back from our trips, and see what can be done to convince
> the staff to implement the ones with the highest impact/lowest cost, or 
> the
> biggest bang for the buck.
>
> HTH
>
> Gerald
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Evan Reese
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:15 PM
> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>
> Okay, I just figured that these tips represented - if not official 
> Bookshare
>
> policies - at least prefered Bookshare methods.  And it was written so
> articulately that I figured it had to be you or Gerald or Pratik.  But you
> were the logical culprit as the site does have your name on it. <smile>
>
> Thank goodness for programmers and fast processors.  I can make a copy of 
> a
> book with m dashes in it in a split second and send that up to Bookshare
> while keeping one of my own with the format that looks best on my Braille
> display.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:03 PM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>
>
>> Hi Evan,
>>    You should note that tips on my website are produced by volunteers.
>> While yes, I do have editorial control over them, they do not nor will
>> they ever necessarily represent my perceptions or views.
>>    I actually thought about that tip earlier and went back and read the
>> afending passage, and noted that it should be changed. The tips area in
>> fact is due for a clean up. This is an item on my list of things to do
>> this summer. There are in fact multiple tips on identifying copyrights
>> that should be merged and other excentricities.
>>
>> Jake
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:49 PM
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>
>>
>>> Well, to say the least, certainly Jake is sending a mixed message here.
>>> I quote from the Volunteer Tips portion of his site.
>>>
>>> Em-dash:
>>>
>>> This character, also called a long dash, is not currently translated
>>> correctly in BRF files. Some OCR packages also substitute hyphens for
>>> em-dashes due
>>> to problems recognizing the length of the dash.
>>> It is also common to discover that em-dashes have been replaced by
>>> hyphens when someone downloads the DAISY copy of a book which they have
>>> submitted. This
>>> is very likely caused by some confusion on the part of a validator since
>>> This character is probably the least familiar character common in books
>>> today.
>>> It is used for inserting a pause slightly longer than a comma to mark a
>>> phrase that interrupts the original flow of a sentence. It is also used
>>> when a
>>> speakers sentence is interrupted by another speaker or abruptly ends for
>>> any other reason.
>>> In order to avoid conversion of em-dashes into hyphens either because of
>>> braille translation errors, or due to a validator's software or 
>>> confusion
>
>>> it might
>>> be best to replace them with two dashes. There should not be any spaces
>>> between the two dashes or on either side of them. Em-dashes may also be
>>> misrecognized
>>> by your scanning software, so checking books for this error before
>>> submission would be a very good idea. A quick way to determine whether
>>> your book has
>>> this problem is to search for a dash followed by a quotation mark. If 
>>> you
>
>>> find a single short dash in front of the quotation mark instead of two
>>> short
>>> dashes or one em-dash, than you know your book has a problem.
>>> Unfortunately, there is no quick way to locate all errors of this type.
>>> To replace em-dashes with double short dashes you can place an em-dash 
>>> in
>
>>> the Find box by selecting one from the text and copying and pasting it,
>>> by using
>>> the Insert-4 command in JAWS which provides a list of characters that 
>>> are
>
>>> difficult to produce with the keyboard, or by holding down Alt while
>>> typing 0151
>>> on the Numb-Pad. Once you have an em-dash in the Find box you can simply
>>> type two dashes in the Replace box and select Replace All.
>>>
>>> This does not square with what he posted up here today.
>>>
>>> There are several other characters which need to be watched out for with
>>> respect to the Braille translation software.  You can read about them 
>>> all
>
>>> at:
>>>
>>> http://www.jbrownell.com/bks/tip.asp?id=18
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 2:28 PM
>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jake,
>>>>
>>>> I see your point, for the most part. However, if Bookshare did in fact
>>>> invest significant time and money into upgrading the braille
>>>> translation, how did the m dash issue go by the wayside? Is this truly 
>>>> a
>
>>>> difficult issue to resolve?
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 1:26 PM
>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Scott,
>>>>>    Pratick has in all likelihood already pointed out BookShare's
>>>>> position. Trying to preserve the original text as closely as possible
>>>>> is a good idea.
>>>>>    Upgrading the Braille translation is always possible in the future.
>>>>> For those skeptical, I point out that BookShare invested significant
>>>>> time last year to produce better formatted Braille files.
>>>>>    Also, think of it this way, if you get rid of em dashes, nothing
>>>>> will ever put them back. Some folks who use DAISY might even be
>>>>> confused when encountering double dashes, and that implies a different
>>>>> style of writing than does using the em dash. Bottom line is that yes,
>>>>> it's a minor change, but it is a change nonetheless.
>>>>>
>>>>> What exactly is appearing in the Braille files, verses what should be?
>>>>> Bringing specifics like this to my attention will help Gerald and I
>>>>> when we attempt to punch out some lists of things that need to be
>>>>> addressed. Telling a programmer, hey em dashes aren't coming out 
>>>>> right,
>
>>>>> isn't as helpful as telling him/her what is coming out rather than 
>>>>> what
>
>>>>> should be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jake
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 2:58 PM
>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently, I'm handling m dashes as described in Evan's message. I
>>>>>> convert m dashes to double dashes when working with the rtf files in
>>>>>> MS Word. Is there an official Bookshare position on this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:35 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't know what the Braille translator does with them.  As I 
>>>>>>>recall,
>
>>>>>>>it either doesn't display them properly, or it only puts in one dash
>>>>>>>instead of two, which is what you should have in the Braille file.  I
>>>>>>>do know that in books I scan and read as rtf files, they are not
>>>>>>>properly displayed on my Pac Mate.  I generally convert them to 
>>>>>>>double
>
>>>>>>>dashes with a quick search and replace all in Word before sending 
>>>>>>>them
>
>>>>>>>up to Bookshare.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not changing that.  I don't see why Braille readers should have
>>>>>>> to suffer through crummy-looking text because someday some future
>>>>>>> software upgrade just might fix the problem - assuming there is one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>> From: "Scott Blanks" <scottsjb@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:31 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm curious though, which comes out better in braille: m dash, or
>>>>>>>> double dash? Does it matter? I seem to specifically remember 
>>>>>>>> several
>
>>>>>>>> people on this list encouraging the conversion of m dashes to 
>>>>>>>> double
>
>>>>>>>> dashes for the benefit of braille readers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can anybody comment?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>>> From: "Pratik patel" <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:39 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cindy,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please stick with the M-dash character when you enter it.  The
>>>>>>>>> automated
>>>>>>>>> tools may not support the proper conversion, but, we have to make
>>>>>>>>> sure that
>>>>>>>>> future versions of those tools do support such conversions.  The
>>>>>>>>> em-dash
>>>>>>>>> character is a slightly shorter character than the double dash
>>>>>>>>> (--). I know
>>>>>>>>> we have been working with the formatting to satisfy the stripper
>>>>>>>>> requirement; but we should try to take a conservative approach 
>>>>>>>>> when
>
>>>>>>>>> editting
>>>>>>>>> the original text especially when it comes to formatting.  In some
>>>>>>>>> cases, we
>>>>>>>>> might have to move words around or make slight font changes but we
>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>> avoid making other changes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pratik
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pratik Patel
>>>>>>>>> Director, CUNY Assistive technology Services (CATS)
>>>>>>>>> The City University of New York
>>>>>>>>> pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:55 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is Lissi right in what she says about two dashes
>>>>>>>>> instead of an em dash being easier to read in braile?
>>>>>>>>> What about with Daisy? What should I be doing, em dash
>>>>>>>>> or double dash?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- Estelnalissi <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Jake,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your directions worked perfectly! I'm levitating! We
>>>>>>>>>> all know I'm not the
>>>>>>>>>> fastest barge on the canal when it comes to
>>>>>>>>>> computers, but your instructions
>>>>>>>>>> put those m dashes exactly where I needed them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The M dash will be especially easy to remember
>>>>>>>>>> because it's insert 4 as you
>>>>>>>>>> said for jaws, and then tapping e 4 times to reach m
>>>>>>>>>> dash and enter not even
>>>>>>>>>> having to go to OK!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also exciting is the fact I saw a slew of items
>>>>>>>>>> listed in the insert 4
>>>>>>>>>> dialogue box which may turn out to be useful!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The book I'm working on is an Irish memoir. Instead
>>>>>>>>>> of using quotes or
>>>>>>>>>> apostrophes, there's a dash or m dash before all
>>>>>>>>>> quotes and no mark to show
>>>>>>>>>> the end of the quote. It's plain in print because
>>>>>>>>>> quotes are inserted
>>>>>>>>>> farther than the narrative, but I think braille
>>>>>>>>>> readers will quickly catch
>>>>>>>>>> the pattern.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While blissfully making my corrections with the new
>>>>>>>>>> command, I noticed that
>>>>>>>>>> the scanner read these unique indications of quotes
>>>>>>>>>> as dash about half of
>>>>>>>>>> the time and M dash the other half with some minus
>>>>>>>>>> signs thrown in for
>>>>>>>>>> variety. The mixture was random so I made a command
>>>>>>>>>> decision to use the
>>>>>>>>>> simpler dash to indicate quotes. I'm on page 27 now
>>>>>>>>>> and all quotes are
>>>>>>>>>> uniformly indicated with a single dash, easier for
>>>>>>>>>> me and the reader.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> By the way, when this book is approved, I'm going to
>>>>>>>>>> mention that while
>>>>>>>>>> anyone interested in quirky humor, Irish culture and
>>>>>>>>>> recalling life from
>>>>>>>>>> 1959 through 1960 something will like this book, but
>>>>>>>>>> the POV, and the
>>>>>>>>>> father, a kind of hero to the author will really
>>>>>>>>>> appeal to the gritty guys
>>>>>>>>>> among the members. I'm entranced, but regularly
>>>>>>>>>> amused in spite of myself
>>>>>>>>>> and grossed out, too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Always with love,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lissi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for helping me to enjoy another break
>>>>>>>>>> through!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:52 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: M dash, how to make
>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Lissi,
>>>>>>>>>> >    There are two easy ways to insert an em-dash
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > If you're using Microsoft Word, you can press
>>>>>>>>>> CTRL+ALT+the minus sign on
>>>>>>>>>> > the numpad.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > If you're using JAWS, you can press INSERT+4 (the
>>>>>>>>>> 4 on the regular
>>>>>>>>>> > keyboard) and you'll get a list of symbols. Press
>>>>>>>>>> the letter e a few times
>>>>>>>>>> > and you'll find em dash, then press enter.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > That's all there is to it.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Jake
>>>>>>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>>>>> > From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] M dash, how to make it?
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >> Dear Volunteer Friends,
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> There was a discussion here about making that
>>>>>>>>>> long dash called m dash by
>>>>>>>>>> >> Jaws using microsoft word while validating an RTF
>>>>>>>>>> file. How to make it
>>>>>>>>>> >> with other programs might have been mentioned,
>>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> What I mostly remember is that it was suggested
>>>>>>>>>> that just using 2 dashes
>>>>>>>>>> >> comes out better for the braille reader in
>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare's BRF file of a
>>>>>>>>>> >> book. So, I decided that when I had a choice, I'd
>>>>>>>>>> use 2 dashes.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> However, the book I'm validating is already
>>>>>>>>>> packed with m dashes, so if I
>>>>>>>>>> >> fix one, I thought it should match them.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> How do I make an m dash? Occasionally jaws calls
>>>>>>>>>> an m dash a minus, and I
>>>>>>>>>> >> want to replace the minus signs with m dashes. If
>>>>>>>>>> anyone can point me to
>>>>>>>>>> >> the answer or remind me how to do this, I'd
>>>>>>>>>> appreciate it and save the
>>>>>>>>>> >> information in my Bookshare Tips file.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> While I wait to hear about this, I'll mark the
>>>>>>>>>> spot and go on. I'm only
>>>>>>>>>> >> on page 12, but this book really motivates me to
>>>>>>>>>> make good progress.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Hope all of your current endeavors are going
>>>>>>>>>> swimmingly. - Smile
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Always with love,
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Lissi
>>>>>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe from this list send a blank Email
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> >> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> >> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
>>>>>>>>>> subject line.  To get a list
>>>>>>>>>> >> of available commands, put the word 'help' by
>>>>>>>>>> itself in the subject line.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> -- 
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>>>>>>>>>> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>>>> >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/354 -
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>>>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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