Hello Anni,
Thankyou for your indepth reply. Nice to see this site moving again after the
quiet. The Interview with Sophie is in last issue of The Knowing Field ( issue
16, June 2010.) The section of the interview was clear in my post and spoke
about pain only. The source that follows moves through my personal experience
and knowing that all actions of guilt and innocence everywhere and in everyone,
leads to embodiment of pain sooner or later.
Anni I have replied in red to your post below.
________________________________
From: anni <annimukkala@xxxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 2:26:43 AM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Clinical Depression
Hi all, Interesting topic. Sadhana I have a couple of questions regarding your
post. The first is this: I am not clear where Sophie's words end and yours then
begin again. The second is more of a comment and simply is about copyright.
That
being said, I am not sure that Sophie is speaking about guilt and innocence or
if this is your personal interpretation? I am left quite confused as to the
source of the opinion here. If you could clarify that would be great.
Depression is, of course, a blanketing of something else. This goes almost
without saying and I find it very frustrating that it is generally treated as a
symptom to be controlled and not as a sign that leads to the source of the
problem. That is an issue in and of itself which I do not wish to discuss more
in this post.
As we speak of guilt here, I am using the word in the sense that we have
received something from someone else, something usually good, and that as a
result we feel compelled to give something good back to that person. We are
feeling guilty until we can re-balance our taking back into reciprocal giving.
It is important that we do not use the sense of guilt in saying that I have
done
something bad to someone. This is not how Hellinger used the term. I will say
it
again. Guilt is the act of taking responsability for something one is not
responsible for.It is not the act of doing something bad to someone it is the
act of doing something bad to yourself.....self absorbed, self centered. "It's
all about me." Innocence is doing something bad to someone else. .......outer
and other focused, "centre fleeing". "It's all about me but I will pretend its
not."
Infants have a great capacity to know how the giving and taking works. If an
infant is in a situation where it is dangerous to take, then the infant will
move into a protective function that allows only to give. The infant pleases
and
gives and remains innocent. .....and guilty and in pain.This continues into
adult relationships and the giving is never balanced with taking. Here, the
taking would allow us to move into guilt and grow and become persons who
balance
our lives with give and take. The entanglement with guilt is the infant's tie
with family guilt and is not the guilt of the child however. Healing allows the
adult later in life to take from a safe source of love and to then re-balance
that with a gift of giving in response. Yes the child takes responsability for
something that they can do nothing about (blind love): they become "too big,"
in the process.
Depression in this situation is often as you said rooted in the guilt of the
family....for example a mother who takes from her child and is not able to give
or willing to give is in a state of 'guilt' into which the child becomes
entangled. The child chooses to only give because to take can be life
threatening. This habitual state of giving later appears in adult life as
'innocence.' One who gives is innocent. Innocence has nothing to give. It is
empty/void of life force. One who takes is guilty. Guilt is unable to take life
force either. It is in its own way, out of order.The healing comes when the
adult can see the picture of this and realize that he or she can now
safely..........move beyond guilt and innocence...... receive to take. Growth
happens between guilt and innocence, it is life force beyond guilt and
innocence. This is one stage of healing this is the only path of
healing/growth.....only but it is integral to growth. One must be clear that in
constellation terms guilt and innocence are related to.....the imitation of
.......... the giving and receiving of love. They are not terms that imply
trauma or harm. All imitation creates trauma and harm. Although these things
may
be part of the systemic dynamic.
If one is never free to move into a place of guilt,(blind love of a child)
meaning of taking from another a gift such as a loving act, then one is caught
in an unbalanced set of relationships where giving to another is a constant.
This is one dynamic that can lead to depresssion. The depression is often
spoken
of as having underlying fear and the fear is of becoming guilty by receiving
love. It is sometimes even rooted in terror and and shame. It can be very
difficult to shift. It is not so difficult if one stands in the middle of guilt
and innocence and refuses to participate in either. Strength and conscious love
are a consequence of this stance when combined with awareness, acceptance and
totality.
Other causes of depression are also possible. The cause is only
one...........denial of lifeforce by remaining guilty or innocent. The effect
is also only one...........death. I do not believe that depression has a single
source but that is it always the result of something left unmanifested. Yes
conscious love. When the source has been allowed to manifest in some way then
the purpose of the depression is released. I think that attempting to put some
kind of definition to depression as the source is incorrect. Depression is only
a symptom of something else. Depression is like a blanket that covers and puts
into the darkness the source. The source cannot be simply uncovered with
'blanket statements' but needs to be in each case uncovered with that systems
particular dynamics and hidden entanglements. No, source is not dependent upon
any of that. Such dynamics are not the business of source and neither are they
mine. They belong to each individual seperately to solve. However many CT
therapists do make it their business. Entanglement is always a consequence.
ENJOY! Kind regards Sadhana
What a great topic. Love you all. Blessings and smile at a stranger today. Anni
--- In ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Kay Needham
<familyconstellationinfo@...> wrote:
Hello Gary,
I also used to see that any PAIN unexpressed can be repeated or depressed
until
my recent interview with Sophie Hellinger in The Knowing Field...that went
like
this:
Â
SADHANA: We also have deep feelings of personal pain and anger and sometimes
even hatred. Are these things related to the same deficit?
Â
SOPHIE : Yes, so this is the child again that was hurt when it was little and
did not get what it needed then.  This is stored very deeply in us. The
problem
is that if we believe that we still cannot get, what we did not get then,
this
is a big error that we carry on.
Â
 SADHANA:  It seems that these things that we are missing are suppressed as
children and continue to be repressed into adulthood because they hold pain.
 They remain hidden or excluded from our understanding, like a shadow self.
Â
SOPHIE:Â Â It is not repression. The child could only survive by putting
their
needs aside and not going straight to them.
Â
Â
SADHANA:Â Is there any way we can fulfil these deep needs from childhood
that
remain like wounds deep inside us? Â Is there anything we can do to resolve
these
deep needs?
Â
SOPHIE: The first thing is that we do not recognise where the problem is. If
we
could do that we would know where the problem is and could solve it.Â
Â
This understanding reframes alot of my own past perspectives. What I am
noticeing is that entanglement in GUILT consequently creates projection of
INNOCENCE. Guilt denies or displaces personal need by following (repeating a
pattern)  in blind love. Today I am reflecting upon whether guilt is the
"centripetal force" and innocence the "centrifugal force." If so,Â
opportunity
for transformation is held in guilt alone, as innocence does'nt really
exist (according to Newtons law.) Guilt and innocence deny existential need,
inhibit growth and prevent nourishment. My observation of depression is that
it
is a starvation of the soul, a state of intense hunger that refuses
to feed....ie: take fully what it needs to grow. Â
Â
Guilt is taking responsability for something that one is actually not
responsible for. Guilt is displacement of original need, so is depression
and
many other illnesses. The original act of following or taking over was not
the
business of the person following or taking over. For example, the grandfather
whom you represented may have been caught in a morphogenic pattern of blind
love
that continues to avoid nourishment out of intense loyalty and blind love.
He
ends up starving, he has taken on something far too big for him to handle. Â
He
is not bigger than life and change itself. Â
Â
Life never trys to match the "evidence with the belief" and neither should
we.
The attempt to match evidence with belief is to become entangled in guilt
(the
belief) and innocence (the evidence.) Life is doing something else and moves
towards growth which is the act of getting a need met. This is the real
exchange
with life force.
Â
Thankyou Gary for creating further reflection upon this issue of illness.
Kind regards
Sadhana
Â
Â
