I too find this discussion on depression very interesting. I would like to
suggest that taking from discussion which focuses on what we've learned from
constellations and stretching it to a country's problems as Gary suggested is
very questionable. I learned this the hard way when I commented on the Obama
election and was corrected by Chris for posting this on the CT list. And yes,
he was right to correct me.
I do think that there is value in exploring and articulating the different
issues that show themselves in constellations in different cultural contexts.
For example, in the intensive constellation training in Hartford, Connecticut,
trauma kept coming up.
As Francesa Mason Boring so beautifully wrote last spring on CT, cultures are
difference and so be valued as such.
________________________________
From: Stephen Campbell <coachuno@xxxxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thu, October 21, 2010 11:50:36 AM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Clinical Depression
Hi all,
I am most grateful to each of you for your contributions to my original
question on Clinical Depression. You have opened my eyes to a variety of
possibilities as well as root sources of depression. The idea that
depression is a blanket or a mask for something with more depth makes much
sense to me. In my practice I have generally associated depression with
repressed or unexpressed anger but your thoughtful posts have lifted my
possible myopic veil to many other causes.
I too am confused by the citation from Sadhana's interview with Sophie in
the Knowing Field. I will just have to read to the entire interview in The
Knowing Field when I receive it. Is Sophie saying that if a child lacks
something in childhood a pattern is set in place so that they will be unable
to recognize it or receive it as adults? More over I don't understand how it
is not a repressed emotion?
I have always seen guilt as a Fedex package someone has sent you. If you
sign for it, its yours! If you don't sing for it, it goes back to the
sender. So, I have difficulty seeing guilt in the give and take of a
wholesome relationship. If I receive something that is lovingly given I
reciprocate out of the love I have for the other person. I certainly do not
experience guilt that I must return the gift (whatever form it takes) in
kind. Guilt in this instance seems "sick" to me. And while I recognize that
it may form part of some relationships I have a difficult time seeing that
as healthy.
Gary, your comments about the cultural or race consciousness were very
interesting. Somewhere I have read that the incidence of depression in the
American population has risen appreciably since WWII? Has me wonder if the
introduction of Weapons of Mass Destruction at the end of WWII could be at
cause?
I am currently reading some very interesting material on the impact of
epigenetics on future generations. For example what we eat, drink or smoke
can impact future generations. We all know the impact of trauma, what about
clinical depression? If one has lived in a household where one or both of
the parents has experienced depressive bouts are the children more
susceptible to a similar experience? From a systemic point of view I would
think that the lack of resolution at the parental level would carry it
forward.
Once again, thanks to each for your contributions. I appreciate them very
much.
Fondly,
Stephen
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:53, Margreet Mossel <margreet@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>]
Hi all,
I love the expression of the blanket. I see depression as a secondary
emotion, therefore covering something that is not allowed to surface. As
with all secondary emotions, I never talk about the emotion, I just ask
where in the body the feeling of this (depression or other feeling) is. If
you focus on that area for a while, quiet and attentive with an open heart,
the original feeling or event comes up and you can work from there. I don’t
make any ideas before about what an emotion can mean.
Just my way of working, very easy, very gentle and very fast.
Love to you all
Margreet Mossel
_____
Van: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Namens anni
Verzonden: donderdag 21 oktober 2010 18:27
Aan: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Onderwerp: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Clinical Depression
Hi all, Interesting topic. Sadhana I have a couple of questions regarding
your post. The first is this: I am not clear where Sophie's words end and
yours then begin again. The second is more of a comment and simply is about
copyright. That being said, I am not sure that Sophie is speaking about
guilt and innocence or if this is your personal interpretation? I am left
quite confused as to the source of the opinion here. If you could clarify
that would be great.
Depression is, of course, a blanketing of something else. This goes almost
without saying and I find it very frustrating that it is generally treated
as a symptom to be controlled and not as a sign that leads to the source of
the problem. That is an issue in and of itself which I do not wish to
discuss more in this post.
As we speak of guilt here, I am using the word in the sense that we have
received something from someone else, something usually good, and that as a
result we feel compelled to give something good back to that person. We are
feeling guilty until we can re-balance our taking back into reciprocal
giving. It is important that we do not use the sense of guilt in saying
that
I have done something bad to someone. This is not how Hellinger used the
term.
Infants have a great capacity to know how the giving and taking works. If
an
infant is in a situation where it is dangerous to take, then the infant
will
move into a protective function that allows only to give. The infant
pleases
and gives and remains innocent. This continues into adult relationships and
the giving is never balanced with taking. Here, the taking would allow us
to
move into guilt and grow and become persons who balance our lives with give
and take. The entanglement with guilt is the infant's tie with family guilt
and is not the guilt of the child however. Healing allows the adult later
in
life to take from a safe source of love and to then re-balance that with a
gift of giving in response.
Depression in this situation is often as you said rooted in the guilt of
the
family....for example a mother who takes from her child and is not able to
give or willing to give is in a state of 'guilt' into which the child
becomes entangled. The child chooses to only give because to take can be
life threatening. This habitual state of giving later appears in adult life
as 'innocence.' One who gives is innocent. One who takes is guilty. The
healing comes when the adult can see the picture of this and realize that
he
or she can now safely receive to take. This is one stage of healing only
but
it is integral to growth. One must be clear that in constellation terms
guilt and innocence are related to the giving and receiving of love. They
are not terms that imply trauma or harm. Although these things may be part
of the systemic dynamic.
If one is never free to move into a place of guilt, meaning of taking from
another a gift such as a loving act, then one is caught in an unbalanced
set
of relationships where giving to another is a constant. This is one dynamic
that can lead to depresssion. The depression is often spoken of as having
underlying fear and the fear is of becoming guilty by receiving love. It is
sometimes even rooted in terror and and shame. It can be very difficult to
shift.
Other causes of depression are also possible. I do not believe that
depression has a single source but that is it always the result of
something
left unmanifested. When the source has been allowed to manifest in some way
then the purpose of the depression is released. I think that attempting to
put some kind of definition to depression as the source is incorrect.
Depression is only a symptom of something else. Depression is like a
blanket
that covers and puts into the darkness the source. The source cannot be
simply uncovered with 'blanket statements' but needs to be in each case
uncovered with that systems particular dynamics and hidden entanglements.
What a great topic. Love you all. Blessings and smile at a stranger today.
Anni
--- In ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com<ConstellationTalk%2540yahoogroups.com>>
, Kay Needham
<familyconstellationinfo@...> wrote:
until
Hello Gary,
I also used to see that any PAIN unexpressed can be repeated or depressed
my recent interview with Sophie Hellinger in The Knowing Field...thatwent
like
this:sometimes
Â
SADHANA: We also have deep feelings of personal pain and anger and
even hatred. Are these things related to the same deficit?and
Â
SOPHIE : Yes, so this is the child again that was hurt when it was little
did not get what it needed then.  This is stored very deeply in us. Theproblem
is that if we believe that we still cannot get, what we did not get then,this
is a big error that we carry on.suppressed
Â
 SADHANA:  It seems that these things that we are missing are
as
children and continue to be repressed into adulthood because they holdpain.
 They remain hidden or excluded from our understanding, like a shadowself.
their
Â
SOPHIE:Â Â It is not repression. The child could only survive by putting
needs aside and not going straight to them.that
Â
Â
SADHANA:Â Is there any way we can fulfil these deep needs from childhood
remain like wounds deep inside us? Â Is there anything we can do toresolve these
deep needs?If we
Â
SOPHIE: The first thing is that we do not recognise where the problem is.
could do that we would know where the problem is and could solve it.Âof
Â
This understanding reframes alot of my own past perspectives. What I am
noticeing is that entanglement in GUILT consequently creates projection
INNOCENCE. Guilt denies or displaces personal need by following(repeating a
pattern)  in blind love. Today I am reflecting upon whether guilt isthe
"centripetal force" and innocence the "centrifugal force." If so,Âopportunity
for transformation is held in guilt alone, as innocence does'nt reallyneed,
exist (according to Newtons law.) Guilt and innocence deny existential
inhibit growth and prevent nourishment. My observation of depression isthat it
is a starvation of the soul, a state of intense hunger that refusesdepression
to feed....ie: take fully what it needs to grow. Â
Â
Guilt is taking responsability for something that one is actually not
responsible for. Guilt is displacement of original need, so is
and
many other illnesses. The original act of following or taking over wasnot
the
business of the person following or taking over. For example, thegrandfather
whom you represented may have been caught in a morphogenic pattern ofblind love
that continues to avoid nourishment out of intense loyalty and blindlove. He
ends up starving, he has taken on something far too big for him tohandle.
 He
is not bigger than life and change itself. Âshould
Â
Life never trys to match the "evidence with the belief" and neither
we.
The attempt to match evidence with belief is to become entangled in guilt(the
belief) and innocence (the evidence.) Life is doing something else andmoves
towards growth which is the act of getting a need met. This is the realexchange
with life force.
Â
Thankyou Gary for creating further reflection upon this issue of illness.
Kind regards
Sadhana
Â
Â
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
