Dear Maria Luiza and All,
It may be very well that a discussion on Isca and the Brazilian Association
running in this forum is not a coincidence. Perhaps some lessons we may learn
here from both.
I want to make a few comments adding on what Ma.Luiza said that our Brazil
Association is still active. We have been struggling for years to have it work
to satisfaction, and in my point of view it has not. I can testify this as I
was one of the volunteer directors for years and know only too well the
discussions, the meetings, the frustration and the work we had gone thru to
make it work. An Association does not work simply work because it is called
"association". It does not work simply because some members voted "to continue"
instead of "closing it down". It works because it offers something valuable to
their members "equally" and their members feel "faithful" in return
contributing and this, certainly, was not the case of ours, despite all the
efforts, including mine.
I dont know the reasons I can only tell my feelings. Again, I feel that we had
different interests and this was a basic reason to my point of view. I too am
sorry.
As to the support you are speaking about, this was a request for a moral
support (not financial) from one of our members (ex-president) on a project to
the government Health department including constellations, so I understood
from the letter I received. So I too wish this to be approved as I have a
social project (constellations for prisioners who left prisons which Bert
Hellinger accepted verbally to be an honor member at that time: 4 years ago).
I too wish our Association can stand back to its own feet but lets be
realistic: we are dealing with people.
If you want to further this discussion, Maria Luiza, we can do it privately.
Too many emotions may run heat forever. Be sure that the ideals only work when
people are realistic. All my love including Isca.
Ms.Zaquie Meredith
S.Paulo, Brasil
www.zaquie.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paulo Ferraz e Maria Luiza
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [SPAM][ConstellationTalk] CT function
Dear Zaquie,
I agree with you, except that the Brazilian Association is active and
suporting a major training in organizational constelation in the goverment en
Brasilia, Brazil's capital.
As for the discution of any subject, even in group meetings as you are ware
of, it is very hard to keep the focus in just one subject. I think it is ok,
for the subjects flows as they appear.
I'm one who admire your work and courage.
Best wishes,
Maria Luiza
Brasilia -
Brazil
----- Original Message -----
From: Zaquie Meredith
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [SPAM][ConstellationTalk] CT function
tTo Wilfried and others
I simpathize with some of the points you mentioned,Wilfried, being brazilian
with fluent English and having studied abroad. But English is an international
recognized language and there is no other- it allows us, from all over, to be
understood and understand.
I must say , though, that when I joined FC one or two times I jumped into the
conversation and was surprised that nobody answered me or commented on what I
said- the same people seemed to be talking to each other- but I insisted and
now I feel I belong to the group (though hardly anyone makes a comment on what
I said and it is fine too) I understand that most people know each other from
workshops and courses and yet lots of what it is being said I appreciate, read
it and like it. What I dont like, I dont read.
I feel that whatever happens in the world is of interest to FC. Of course,
the whole FC work is sistemic. How can it not be of interest to us? However,
one point is to be short on these issues so not to stay out of track and thats
why Chris interference is of upmost importance. Along this, another point I see
is that one starts a discussion on one specific topic but the second comment
brings 3 other topics and the third person is speaking about something that has
nothing to do with the first one. It lacks objectivity which is part of any
group and thats why we need a leader to bring us back to being objective.
As to Isca and other associations (our brazilian association does not
function today and is considering closing up totally) I feel that most people,
most of us, would have to be trained personally on collective thinking .It
sounds paradox but most of us are selfish professionally and do not consider
others. (we are still in the old thought of each to his own way )The systemic
work as a group (associations) have to have a different point of view which is
"union"as the primary objective but to this you need to train all people who
belong to the group. Lots of Constellators come from different professions and
one year or two years of training does not make us entirely different. You have
to have a spiritual conection also so you can understand that we are all into
one important objective: feel better and facilitate others to feel better. But
how can you "unite" lots of people with different interests ? I see some people
who judged me in the past, interfered w ith my work even writing letters to the
people I was working with , and, today, doing exactly what I was doing. So,
have they matured? See, thats what I am saying: you need all of them to be into
the same vibration but to that it is an individual training... thank you for
"listening".
Thank you.
Ms.Zaquie Meredith
www.zaquie.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paulo Ferraz e Maria Luiza
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:55 PM
Subject: Fw: [SPAM][ConstellationTalk] CT function
----- Original Message -----
From: Paulo Ferraz e Maria Luiza
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [SPAM][ConstellationTalk] CT function
To Wilfried Nelles and Frank Breuer,
Just to add a few aspects....
I'm Brazilian and we have been trainned mostly by German teachers, about 180
- 200 students trained with Jackob ans Sigliend Schineidr and Gunthatd Weber
and Lorenz Wiest and his group of teachers (Ursula Franke - who is German but
speaks perfect Portuguese, Joachim Vieregge - German, and Ingala Robl - From
Tchek Republic, lives in Mexico) we have alredy 11 groups trainned (around 300
- 350 people). Also there is a German lady who lives here in Brasil - Mimansa
who has been trainning students for a long time, and many more theachers and
now also including Bert Hellinger's classes. I
don't have the right number but I wouldn't be exagerating if I said that we
have at least 1.000 constellators trainned by foreing teachers.
We also have now many Brazilian teachers
Many of us don't speak or even understand English, but we have also a list
like Constelation Talk in Portuguese and we have a national association.
For me it is always good to read the e-mails, even though I seldon make any
comments. It keeps me in touch with other ideas and ways os working CT
It takes time to write in other language, but if it was in German it would be
much worse (for me impossible).
A wonderfull 2009 for the whole family of constellators all over the world
Maria Luiza
Brasilia - Brasil
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank & Sylvia Breuer
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 2:33 AM
Subject: RE: [SPAM][ConstellationTalk] CT function
Hi Wilfried and others,
Since not all CT members with a first language other than English feel
entirely comfortable with English (including myself), the use of English is
naturally selective.
However, I do not share Wilfried's concerns, e.g. the consequence that CT
does not really represent the whole world of constellation work. That's
fine to me.
Integrating or representing any different movements may be of scientific
interest. From a practitioner's point of view I'd rather be specific and
have local knowledge.
That's why I really appreciate local topics. For example, saying "sorry" to
the Aboriginal Australians has been such an important issue to the whole
nation (which is my new home country) for many years. It's been absolutely
fantastic that it got a place in CT - a good place in fact. Labelling such
issues as "only local" is also a form of censorship.
In my formal psychology training, I was always encouraged to be specific -
it limits top down processes.
It may yet be useful, to have a lively reflection about political issues,
such as the American election.
Why should CT facilitators or therapists abstain from these issues, if they
are moved by them?
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all of you
Frank Breuer,
raised in Germany,
recently moved to Sydney, Australia
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of wilfriednelles
Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2008 7:51 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SPAM][ConstellationTalk] CT function
Hi all
This is a voice from the outside. This so called censorship seems to be a
really exciting
issue. There seem to be a lot of fears and projections, and an
overestimation of CT. It
stimulated me to think about the function of CT and who is included and who
is excluded.
I would like to mention a few points which are much more exclusive than the
new
guidelines (please forgive my language mistakes):
1) This forum is a private initiative, a deliberate service. So Chris has
every right to
handle it in his own way.
2) There is already a hidden "censorship": the language. As this forum is in
English it has
a big bias towards the Anglo-American community. There is, for example, only
one
German facilitator who makes regulary contributions - Sneh, who is married
with an
American and speaks English at home. Only once in a while you'll find a
contribution from
the Latin-American or Asian or European countries. It seems, as if the FC
community is
merely American / Australian, although the work itself is much stronger in
other parts of
the world. For example: the hype about the American elections - what had it
to do with
FC? The discussion about the apology of the Australian Prime Minister - it
is a local
phenomenon. Or Dan Cohen's PhD? I mean, it's fine that he made it, and it is
good to
know that there is another dissertation, but there are so many peaces of
profound work in
other countries, which are not even mentioned. So the language of the forum
creates a
reality on it's own. To make it clear: I am not against English as the forum
language, but
we should see the implications. Actually it excludes more people from the
discussion then
any new guideline. To me, who is working in many countries in Europe and
Asia but not in
the Anglo-Saxon countries, it is like reading the newspaper to get an
impression what the
people in America and Australia are talking about.
3) So any forum or even an organisation like ISCA will not reflect the
international
community. By the very fact that the language is English it will reflect
basically the Anglo-
American discussion and view. When, for examle, I read the basic article
about
constellations on the ISCA webpage I didn't feel represented at all. I
honour the huge work
which has been done by those who created this site but reading this article
I felt it is a
different world. To me it is a very artificial construction about FC and
it's "roots" (which
are merely products of thought) which tries hard to look sophisticated and
scientific. I
didn't find any depth in it. No soul, no spirit, just thought. This of
course is not only a
question of language, but it seems clear that the language creates a shift
in the
perspectives and discussions. This may not be bad, and I don't see any
alternative to
English as the international language, but it has it's consequences.
4) I think the forum is a very useful tool to connect, but not more. And it
is an
American-Australian forum, it doesn't represent or integrate something like
the
international FC community. And similar will be a blog on the ISCA website.
5) To write this took me twice or three times as long then to write in my
own language.
And I am only able to share informations, I am not able to express myself
authentically.
Wilfried Nelles, Germany
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