Todd, This is not super-theoretical-science in the clouds. It can be done just as practically and “easily” as the EQ, DFE and CDR AMI algorithms can be done in the DLL-s. It involves the same kind of algorithm knowledge, and programming skill. The question is, do we want to let model makers to do this, and possibly get a bunch of bad models from inexperienced people, or should we, the EDA vendors still have the opportunity to sell our expertise and provide higher quality and more reliable solutions to our customers and AMI model users. Thanks, Arpad ========================================================== From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:54 PM To: Dmitriev-Zdorov, Vladimir; 'Gregory R Edlund' Cc: ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Analog Buffer Model Inside DLL Vladimir, Not clear to me how you propose to handle the reflections associated with discontinuities at the point where the TX and RX analog circuits interface to the channel. More importantly, even if it’s theoretically possible, that doesn’t make it practical. I’ll admit I’m guessing here, but I expect Greg wants to solve a problem, not just establish that it should be possible to solve it. Todd. Todd Westerhoff VP, Software Products Signal Integrity Software Inc. • www.sisoft.com<http://www.sisoft.com> 6 Clock Tower Place • Suite 250 • Maynard, MA 01754 (978) 461-0449 x24 • twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx> “I want to live like that” -Sidewalk Prophets From: Dmitriev-Zdorov, Vladimir [mailto:vladimir_dmitriev-zdorov@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 2:39 PM To: twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx>; 'Gregory R Edlund' Cc: ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Analog Buffer Model Inside DLL In an abstract/theoretical way, it is still possible that AMI DLL correctly takes care of the “impulse response” by adding its internal model to it. Then however it should not be an ‘impulse response’, but 2- or 4-port S-parameters representing the core portion of the channel, which does not include analog models. Each model then can ‘append’ its analog part to the S-parameters, and restore the resulting impulse response, if needed for equalization. Instead of returning the updated impulse response, the Init function (or how we call it) will return the updated touchstone file, which then is passed to the Rx model, with the same purpose. The objection here is that Tx must have the complete channel info, with Rx analog model, before its Init function can start thinking about equalization, but then ‘appending’ analog models could be either separated from Init, and organized as one more function, possibly combined with what Fangyi proposed about resolving dependences, or we could still do everything in just one function, but perform a few cycles of Initialization, for example: (Tx_Init(), Rx_Init()), (Tx_Init(), Rx_Init()) … which resembles “backchannel” communication on Init() stage. Of course, the writer of the AMI model must be able to do some operations with touchstone files, such as appending the model to it, and converting it into transfer function, finding impulse response by IFFT, etc. From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Todd Westerhoff Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 11:51 AM To: 'Gregory R Edlund' Cc: ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Analog Buffer Model Inside DLL Greg, Ask yourself how the person writing an algorithmic model should accurately model the reflections associated with an unspecified channel. If there’s a way to do that, I’d like to hear about it. Todd. Todd Westerhoff VP, Software Products Signal Integrity Software Inc. • www.sisoft.com<http://www.sisoft.com> 6 Clock Tower Place • Suite 250 • Maynard, MA 01754 (978) 461-0449 x24 • twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx> “I want to live like that” -Sidewalk Prophets From: Gregory R Edlund [mailto:gedlund@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 1:41 PM To: Todd Westerhoff Cc: ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [ibis-macro] Analog Buffer Model Inside DLL Todd, Thanks for the response. So, there are no "mathematical tricks" one can play in the DLL to account for the absence of the analog buffer model in the impulse response? You can tell I haven't taken enough time to think this through all the way. I'm having a knee-jerk reaction to a discussion that's going on internally. 8-) I'm about to dig into the IBIS 5.1 flow material to support my position. I just wanted to make sure I had my ducks in a row and get some outside corroboration. Anyone else care to chime in? Greg Edlund Senior Engineer Signal Integrity and System Timing IBM Systems & Technology Group 3605 Hwy. 52 N Bldg 050-3 Rochester, MN 55901 [Inactive hide details for Todd Westerhoff ---12/12/2012 12:31:11 PM---Greg, That is not possible. The analog model, by definiti]Todd Westerhoff ---12/12/2012 12:31:11 PM---Greg, That is not possible. The analog model, by definition, interacts with the channel and must be From: Todd Westerhoff <twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx>> To: Gregory R Edlund/Rochester/IBM@IBMUS Cc: "ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>" <ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> Date: 12/12/2012 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [ibis-macro] Analog Buffer Model Inside DLL ________________________________ Greg, That is not possible. The analog model, by definition, interacts with the channel and must be included in the impulse response. The equalization, also by definition, is considered to be electrically isolated from the channel and is thus represented in the DLL. Putting the analog model in the DLL violates a fundamental assumption of IBIS-AMI. You may get good-looking results, but they will be invalid. Todd. -- Todd Westerhoff VP, Software Products SiSoft 6 Clock Tower Place, Suite 250 Maynard, MA 01754 (978) 461-0449 x24 twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:twesterh@xxxxxxxxxx> www.sisoft.com<http://www.sisoft.com/> “I want to live like that" -Sidewalk Prophets On Dec 12, 2012, at 1:13 PM, Gregory R Edlund <gedlund@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:gedlund@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: What nasty things are likely to happen if someone puts the analog buffer model inside the DLL? At the very least, the impulse response will be incorrect. Are there any circumstances under which this can work correctly? Greg Edlund Senior Engineer Signal Integrity and System Timing IBM Systems & Technology Group 3605 Hwy. 52 N Bldg 050-3 Rochester, MN 55901