Dear All,
With Allison's departure and Tom's exclusion I am now experiencing my two
greatest fears, abandonment and rejection! Oy!
My mind loves this idea of the "King's Fool" and though it may serve a pupose
in a setting of absolute power versus none as is the situation of Kings, it
does not serve well here. We are simply humans of equal power working to
understand a process that is quite mysterious to us all. Chris has done a
wonderful job of making sure the postings are "for the good of all concerned"
and not self serving, i.e., no advertising, etc.
One of the most important learnings I have received from this work is the
wisdom of my body over that of my mind. My mind is a monkey that seeks fun and
excitement and exercise and it can go almost anywhere for that experience. My
body has a truer path in that it is extremely clear about what feels right and
wrong. Tom's message felt wrong even though my mind could see the cleverness
in it. It felt self serving and at the expense of others. To make fun of
kings is one thing but to poke fun at the most gentle of souls is simply not
funny...and deeply wrong. Wrong because it simply feels viscerally wrong and
of course my mind can make a great case in support but there is no need.
When Chris responded so clearly to Tom, my body felt relief. I felt good and
solid and clear much as I do in a role when a good resolution has been found.
I don't need to make it about Tom and whatever personal issues he has. It
really doesn't matter. He has been warned before and has clearly not seen the
light. His postings do not serve my interests in belonging to this forum and
in fact repulse me. I don't need to mentally masturbate the decision to
exclude him. It feels right and it is right.
Creating a forum for decision making of who to include or not feels binding and
unneccessary. Of course that is because I am in agreement with Chris's
decisions up to now so I will leave that discussion to those who are not having
a good experience. For myself, Bravo Chris!
All the best,
Barbara Eggenberger
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Alison Rose Levy <LevyAR@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Thanks, Ingala, for this suggestionâ and I think it would be very helpful
and would suggest that the group adopt one of the first two suggestions.
Tomâs posting as well as the responses to it have triggered a lot for meâ
Iâm feeling weepy, scared, and emotionally overwhelmed at finding myself
labeled like this and cast as a designated victim in a supposedly
therapeutic forum/form that Iâve devoted many years to practicingâ and where
I felt that I had some right to belong.
Despite many years of hard work, that kind of vulnerability to victim
identification is never that far away for someone like me, so perhaps I am
not sufficiently hardy to belong to this cavalier group of manly
philosophers. I have to apologize to the German masters of this work and
their surrogates if I have failed in my efforts to be a good enough German
because my heritage and ancestry make me pray to being that most
unattractive and unsympathetic of all creaturesâ namely a Jewish victim
woman.
While some might enjoy these discussions as armchair philosophers, I must
confess I feel too exposed and vulnerable to feel that way. Iâm having a
hard time staying in the group, and it occurs to me that it would be much
simpler for everyone if I left so you could all celebrate your
inclusiveness.
Anyone wishing to contact me can do so privately, and Chris I am asking to
be removed for this time.
Alison
On 1/19/08 10:05 AM, Ingala Robl Greis at ingalarobl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Greetings to all<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_hatte_einen_Kameraden>
I have several suggestions for this type of conduct by people like Tom:
- We could form a Committee of Honour and Ethics, so that Chris
would not have to take this type of decision
- Once the page is up, we could use the poll-program so that
everybody could vote on this: leading to temporary exclusion
or total exclusion from the group, or whatever, which keeps the
lever off Chris also
- We could just let it be because everybody has a right to voice his/
her opinion, even those opinions we do not like and offend us, and
there are many people out in the world like this. Our motto is
inclusion. As several of you have mentioned: systemically, what Tom
wrote, tells more about Tom than about the people he wrote about,
Best greetings,
Ingala
El 18/01/2008, a las 14:22, Chris Walsh escribió:
Hi all
This was a difficult decision and not based on this email alone. I
have
given Tom a series of private warnings before so my move would not
have been
a surprise to him. I in fact had used the option to stop him
sending emails
but it failed on this occasion. So the only options were to put up
with this
or exclude him for a while. Please note the words âfor a whileâ° .
He does
have the possibility of returning if he apologises. If he does not
want to
do that then he is excluding himself.
I think Sheila made a very good point that Tom deserves the
feedback from
the group post exclusion. I will forward that to him. It is easy to
forward
you own emails to him as I have done here by copying him in.
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
webpage: www.cwalsh.com.au
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Anita Roy
Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2008 5:54 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Tom Melleltt
There are many ways to do set boundaries, and I appreciate that
Chris was in
a difficult spot and had to take measures. In light of recent
discussions re
breastfeeding and parenting, I am thinking what an appropriate
boundary
might be within a family or yahoogroup.
Suspension is a form of alienation. It is like sending a kid to his
room,
but he/she is still in the house, so not "thrown out". However,
that still
causes the child to feel separate and abandoned, and not part of
the family.
I once had a foster child, and if she had raging tantrums in the
living
room, she did have to go to her room, but I went with her, to
alleviate the
component of abandonment. It was preferable for her to stay in the
living
room, but with me or my husband containing her physical and verbal
violent
outbursts. This also alleviated the component of secret goings on
in the
living room when she wasn't there. The containment, and discussion
of her
behaviour were not secret, and transparency to everyone. This was also
educational for my own kids, as they saw the process and learned
from it.
So in that spirit, I would recommend inclusion in the group for
Mellett, but
his postings should be put on moderation as YahooGroups allows, and
if they
are considered inappropriate by Chris who is responsible for the
overall
well being of the group, then they simply shouldn'tt be approved for
broadcast. On good behaviour after any number of months deemed
appropriate,
Mellett could go back to "unmoderated" status.
Sincerely
Anita Roy
On 18/01/2008, Paul Chung <paulchung@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:paulchung%40paulchung.com.hk> > wrote:
like to
Dear all,
I want to explore further from a systemic point of view. I would
know if Chris has to right to set up a constellation to explore ifWhile the
"suspension" is the best solution for the interest of the group?
"group' also include Tom, does he has to right to mediate /regulate in
thea view to
constellation if he detects entanglement between Tom & Bert with
benefit the group. "Has the right" does not imply "has to drive".to have
I support Chris to blow the whistle. I would further support Tom
theinterest".
access to read what is going on with the rest of the group after the
suspension. Again "have the access" does not imply he "has the
are the
To me, Tom's email, as well as Bert's new style in recent years,
best arrangement or the fate of the SC community. "Yes, that'sright"
out from
In Chinese medicine, we give ways for the heat in fever to pass
theis when
body rather than to "stop" or "neutralise" it. A typical example
a baby or small child has fever, we'd rub our hands with medicineoil to
heat before placing it over the baby's feet to direct the heatfrom there.
Or we mop the baby's body with warm wet towel to drain away theheat as
theworld
water evaporates from the body. While some people in the western
willFrom our
place ice cube / pad over the baby's forehead to keep it "cool".
perspective, more heat will drain away from the "cooled" foreheadand the
brain cell may be damaged if the baby has a high temperature. Weconsider
directing the heat away with warm wet towel or heated palm overthe feet
are<levye%40rcn.com>>:
much safer.
Paul responding from Hong Kong,
a place where eastern & western culture conglomerate
2008/1/18, Ed Levy <levye@xxxxxxx <mailto:levye%40rcn.com>
starved needdoesn't
Chris,
Thanks for addressing the issue of Tom's inflammable speech, which
suit the purpose of this forum or meet his own seemingly
for<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
attention and contact. I hope he finds both in a healthier way.
Ed Levy
_____
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
<ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>]<tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com><tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com>
On Behalf Of Chris Walsh
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 2:38 AM
To: tmasthenes13@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:tmasthenes13%40yahoo.com>
chance toSubject: FW: [ConstellationTalk] When Bert finally croaks . .
Dear Tom,
I'm sorry but this email of yours is totally over the top and
inappropriate.
Accordingly I have removed you from the list to give you a
coolappropriate
your heals and reflect.
You can reapply to join the group in two months if you make
Alisonapologies to the people you insulted in your email especially
Rose40yahoogroups.com>
Levy, Ed Levy Ed Lynch and Bert Hellinger.
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
webpage: www.cwalsh.com.au
From: ConstellationTalk@ <mailto:ConstellationTalk%
40yahoogroups.com>yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@ ;<mailto:ConstellationTalk%
40yahoogroups.com>yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tmasthenes13
Sent: Friday, 18 January 2008 7:51 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@ <mailto:ConstellationTalk%
"belongsyahoogroups.com
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] When Bert finally croaks . .
Greetings to one and all! As the "Phantom Constellator" who
finallyby not belonging," I just dropped in "to see what condition my
condition was in" and to offer my contribution to the worldwide FC
community when our esteemed Father Anton Suitbert Hellinger
be acroaks.
I choose to describe this future event with a cheeky (actually
throaty!) English slang verb for dying because, as Jesus says, we
don't know the hour of our passing, and ole' Bert might live to
kicks offhundred! Hell, the sonofabitch might outlive me!!!
But the actuarial tables predict otherwise, so odds are, he
postingbefore I do. Therefore, I need a way for you all to stamp this
referenceinto your memories and contact me when Bert's time is up and he
sojourns to that Great Constellation in the sky.
[for those subscribers whose first language is not English, the
etymology of the word "croak" meaning "to die" is either a
person'sto the frog-like sound of the "death rattle" emitted as the
Birthday Bashlast breath on the deathbed, or else the Irish Gaelic verb "croch"
meaning "to hang" --- not only with a rope but also to "hang on a
cross," i.e. "to crucify."]
Here's my offering. For the last few weeks I have been obsessively
singing the moving and stirring German military requiem/elegy song
that Bert had requested to be sung at his 2006 Bavarian
Decemberas Max Dauskardt reported to us in his posting #3009 dated
3009>18, 2006. Click here to read Max's post
http://health.
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/
Goodgroups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/3009
The song is known either by its title: "Mein guter Kamerad" (My
comrade.)Comrade)
or its opening line, "Ich hatte einen Kameraden" (I once had a
history:
Here's an English Wikipedia entry for the song, its use and
http://en.wikipedia ;<
">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_hatte_einen_Kameraden>
chorus, but.org/wiki/Ich_hatte_einen_Kameraden
I possess a very good and booming Irish tenor voice and I envision
singing this hymn at whatever memorial service for Bert we will
organize in Southern California.
(I would also recite his poem to Adolf Hitler in both his German
original and in my English translation.)
Ideally, the Comrade elegy should be sung by a large men's
up toI'm able to sing for ten men in case I have to sing solo. Perhaps
this notice might inspire other men to form a chorus.
I'd be willing to travel to any constellation center or conference
during the one year of official mourning for our beloved father
figure. What a way to set the mood for any and all constellations!
Hope you have enough floor space for all the horizontal
representatives you'll have!
(I can see it now. You know that point in a constellation when the
rep's knees start buckling as they get ready to drop dead? Hey,
sometimes it's the most comfortable position in the whole process.
I've actually fallen asleep as rep on the floor, only to wake
winemaster, "Overthe facilitator needing to convince me that I had actually died!)
Also, we should be proactive and consult our erudite
SophieEasy" Eddie Lynch, who should be able to provide cases of the two
vintage wines: Bert Nouveau and Bert Classique. (Isn't there a
2007Liebfraumilch vintage as well?)
Check Ed Lynch's wine review in this posting #3550 of August 4,
3550>http://health.
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/
the samegroups.yahoo.com/group/ConstellationTalk/message/3550
Oh, I just had a thought! Alison, perhaps you and your Eddie Levy
could provide some kosher wine, maybe Mogen David for the Jewish
representatives. We'll need both perpetrator and victim vintages!
All of the following You Tube videos are no longer than 3 minutes
long. Some are just 2 minutes long. Each and every one plays
tempomen's choral rendition of the song at a slow requiem or elegiac
tempo--- except for [3] which moves at the very stirring faster
in theof a battle hymn. [5] has best sound quality.
Do watch all 8 videos as they are not duplicates of each other
shortchosen photos or movie clips of the German soldiers. I give a
expresses adescription of each video.
Tom Mellett
Van Nuys, CA
==================================
(B/W = Black and White)
[1] Color still photos with German sub-titles. Each photo
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds&;> &>line of the song
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds>
com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds
sequencecom/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds&> &
[2] B/W still photos, with English translation of each line in
shooting,http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pj2EE5WNkw>
com/watch?v=6pj2EE5WNkw
[3] B/W & colorized MOVIE CLIPS, sung at very UPBEAT TEMPO
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpMPUgaEEXQ>
com/watch?v=qpMPUgaEEXQ
[4] Actual B/W MOVIE CLIPS of soldiers marching, deploying,
etc.<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c&NR=1> &NR=1>
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c>
com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo&;> &>com/watch?v=2lhxf6ygz0c&NR=1> &NR=1
[5] Good color still photos, no words, but BEST SOUND QUALITY!
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo>
com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo
caringcom/watch?v=tq94CsnSIFo&> &
=======================================
[6] Posted by German. B/W still photos, all corpses or scenes of
destruction
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24ssJzAtlD0>
com/watch?v=24ssJzAtlD0
[7] Posted by German. B/W still photos, almost all are living
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8&NR=1> &NR=1>for wounded.
http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8>
com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8
situationscom/watch?v=1lh_mJzDrC8&NR=1> &NR=1
[8] B/W still photos, no corpses, only positive military
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI&NR=1> &NR=1>http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI>
com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI
<http://www.youtube. ;<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI
musiccom/watch?v=fWQBSbkaTQI&NR=1> &NR=1
===============================
(Poem written in 1809 by German poet Ludwig Uhland and set to
by Swiss composer Friedrich Silcher in 1825)
=====================
Ich hatt' einen Kameraden,
Einen bessern findst du nit.
Die Trommel schlug zum Streite,
Er ging an meiner Seite
In gleichem Schritt und Tritt.
In gleichem Schritt und Tritt.
Eine Kugel kam geflogen,
Gilt's mir oder gilt es dir?
Ihn hat es weggerissen,
Er liegt mir vor den FüÃen,
Als wär's ein Stück von mir.
Als wär's ein Stück von mir.
Will mir die Hand noch reichen,
Derweil ich eben lad.
Kann dir die Hand nicht geben,
Bleib du im ew'gen Leben
Mein guter Kamerad!
Mein guter Kamerad!
======================
My literal translation:
-------------------------
I once had a comrade
You will never find a better one!
The drums beat for battle.
He went right at my side
with equal gait and stride.
with equal gait and stride.
A bullet came flying
Meant for me or meant for you?
It tore him apart
He lies at my feet
As if he was a piece of me.
As if he was a piece of me.
He still wants to give me his hand
All the while I am reloading:
"I cannot give you my hand!
So stay in eternal life,
My good Comrade,
My good Comrade!"
============================================
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
When a great ship is in harbor and moored, it is safe, there can be no
doubt. But that is not what great ships are built for.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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