It is fascinating..... Monika, you continue to bring up the question of
what PERSONAL events may lead someone to respect systems beyond western
science, to become "a spiritually oriented person".. Very young children
are spiritually oriented. (Tobin Hart). I suspect most of us on this forum
know the self is more than personal, that we come into being in ever more
nested contexts... mother's womb informed by genetics and epigenetics,
family, community, culture, local biosphere, Earth habitat,solar system,
universe... I actually write "self" as "s/Self" most of the time.
So a PERSONAL story... Born in Northern Ireland into a family of multiple
generations of Catholics, I left the Church at 15. I felt there was no
place for me in this totally male-centred system. Women, even with Vatican
2, were not seen as core to theology, daily spiritual practice or the
liturgy. I began reading Marx, philosophy, psychology, early systems
thinking.. In retrospect, I threw the baby out with the bathwater. I
experienced religion as so divisive, exclusionary and unjust, so alienating
to my deep love for the natural world around me, to my body and my budding
sexuality, that I was as scathing as you are... "pseudoscience",
"defensive", "indefensible".. Immigration to Canada, brought the birth of
my daughter and son, recall of childhood trauma, years of personal therapy
as well as practice and multi-modal continuous education as a therapist. It
brought immersion in social justice, feminism, art-making and indigenous
ceremony. I began to recognise a sense of the sacred in day to day life..
the flow of rivers, the swirling murmurations of birds and fish, the wonder
my children experienced daily, the oceanic connection in making love...
Despite decades of rich personal experience of that sense of the sacred, I
was still highly sceptical of constellations and the sort of magical
revelation of unseen dynamics and entanglements over generations that
others saw. Too hugabuga for me... As I've described in The Knowing Field
article, my first experience in a large systems constellation (actually
facilitated by Dan Cohen) blew my scepticism out of the waters of awareness
and changed the course of my life profoundly. Yes, that was a PERSONAL
experience... a PERSONAL experience in the context of connection with
multiple others, including Belvie Rooks who became a sister, someone with
whom I explored, unpacked and healed generations of colonisation, racism,
slavery and abuse of spiritual power by religions and empires.
We hear and see each other into being. I am here because you are, Monika,
...because Dan and Alison and Chris and Diana and Sean and Maire and
thousands of others are here.
Gra agus beannactai
Eimear
Eimear O'Neill, PhD https://www.eimearoneill.com/Eimear_ONeill/Home.html
On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 at 17:55, drmdressler <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hello Alison,
Thank you for the very insightful blog post you sent.
I really enjoyed reading it. I find magic in clear thinking.
From a constellation point of view my interest has not changed -
"As a spiritually oriented person" - WHY?
What are the subtle personal reasons and events behind our orientations?
Monika
----------------------------
Alison Fornes <maitreya71@xxxxxxxxx>
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Iâve been spending time listening and reading many thoughtful systems
thinkers and have been intrigued to find the dividing line between systems
thinkers who are materialists and systems thinkers who are spiritual.
As a spiritually oriented person, I really enjoy the thoughtfulness of the
materialist systems thinkers. They have very specific rules they must
invoke to explain things and I value the integrity I see in many of them,
even if I donât understand their allergy to the spiritual or mystical.
That being said, I also found myself stirred up and challenged in a good
way by their arguments. Hereâs a great post, if youâre curious:
https://blog.cabreraresearch.org/sacred-cows-of-systems-thinking-emergence
On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 3:20 AM drmdressler <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hello Dan,do
Thank you for your heartfelt and eloquent defence of the indefensible.
After the last few exchanges on this forum it is clear to me that the
toothpaste is out of the tube, and it is futile to try to push it back. I
am certainly not here to defend big pharma or drug pushing psychiatry. I
feel the centuries old persecutions, grievances, and traumas in yourwords.
Actually I am not here to argue the points or in fact to argue at all. Oncloser
the one hand physical reality, âmatterâ is already beyond magical on
inspection, so to request additional magic just does not make much sense.times
On the other hand I fully appreciate that the human condition may at
warrant and indeed necessitate journeys into âsupernaturalâ dimensions.So
I am not asking anyone to change their point of view. Not at all. Myand
invitation all along has been about self-inquiry. To look deeply within
identify the PERSONAL events and forces that leads us to conclusions weDobbs,
have. It must be informative to
contemplate that the result of this initial invitation has been
passionate, defensive arguments.
May we have the wisdom and the kindness to take the path within.
Monika
--------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: constellationtalk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <
constellationtalk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Dan Cohen
Sent: Saturday, 30 October 2021 4:33 PM
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hello Monika â
I have been responding to your critique of pseudoscience for 45 years. In
1975, I studied at Northwestern University with Dr. Betty Jo Teeter
an Isaac Newton scholar. She was only the second scholar to be givenaccess
to Newtonâs secret alchemical papers, the first being the great Cambridgeneither
economist John Maynard Keynes. Her course revealed that there two pillars
of modern science, one observational and the other metaphysical. The
metaphysical foundation is materialist and reductionist-empiricist. This
results in the belief that consciousness is nothing but a consequence of
complex arrangement of matter, i.e., brain activity. This belief is
proven, nor warranted.the
What devolved into pseudoscience were the remnants of alchemy and womenâs
plant medicine. Having been persecuted, hung and burned for 4 centuries
descendants of Europeâs witch hunts â which slew upwards of 200,000of
indigenous woman â struggle to maintain a coherent and sustainable
metaphysics based on the lost wisdom.
While many speculative methods flourish, an increasing number of
open-minded scientists are reaching empirically grounded conclusions that
challenge the mainstream majority view. They argue that we need a model
consciousness that is nonreductive and recognizes that consciousness canscientism.
have its own direct access to reality through inner perception or radical
introspection. These offer valid access routes to deeper structures of
reality.
In Constellations, we work with three phenomena which challenge
1. Representative perceptionmainstream
2. Systemic entanglement
3. Orders of Love
There are many Constellation trainers and facilitators who adhere to
acceptable scientific understanding without mystifying. Others, like me,
are channeling ancestors, receiving and transmitting non-local
consciousness, and taking support from plant, animal, earth, ocean and
celestial resources. Our metaphysics are admittingly at odds. I am
convinced the evidence supports mine and is vacant in regard to
science.of
I looked up Pseudoscience on Wikipedia, the authoritative custodians of
the academic/corporate worldview. Their list was made in the context of
âeducating the public about questionable or potentially fraudulent or
dangerous claims and practices.â In one way or another all the topics
impinge on scientific domains or practices. Hereâs a very small excerpt
what is meant by pseudoscience.financial)
* Astrology
* Feng Shui
* Acupuncture
* Alternative medicine
* Anthroposophy
* Applied kinesiology
* Aroma therapy
* Ayurveda
* Chiropractic
* Chronic Lyme disease
* Craniosacral therapy
* Energy medicine
* Energy therapy or healing
* Spiritual medicine or healing
* Functional medicine
* Homeopathy
* Osteopathy
* Traditional Chinese Medicine
* EMDR
* Hypnosis and hypnotherapy
I wonder why psychiatric medications for the treatment of chemical
imbalances in the brain did not make their list? Is it because of the
wealth of scientific evidence in favor of Zyprexa to treat depression? Or
is the divide between science and pseudoscience capricious and biased? I
agree with you there must be deeper and larger forces (not least
compelling manufacturers and practitioners to propose unsupportedby
explanations.
For 45 years, I have devoted myself as an activist and clinician by
pursuing ideas marginalized by culture, erased by history, and obscured
willful ignorance. Maria Popova writes, It is âin the margins of life asand
commonly conceived by our cultureâs inherited parameters of permission
possibility, that I have worked out and continue working out who I am andpursuing
who I wish to be â a private inquiry irradiated by the ultimate question,
the great quickening of thought, feeling, and wonder that binds us all:
What is all this?â
Whatever our metaphysical quibble, Monika, I do not doubt you are
the same pathways to look inside and harmonize our inner and externalbe
worlds.
Warmly
Dan
--------------------------------------
Hello Julie,
You are making an interesting point. "Biological origin" can of course
a convenient way to sidestep difficult social problems. On the otherhand
there are all kinds of biological predispositions. To be fair WebMD afully
mainstream and established scientific forum does not claim that mentalmental
illness is exclusively biological. "Although the exact cause of most
illnesses is not known, it is becoming clear through research that manyof
these conditions are caused by a combination of biological,psychological,
and environmental factors."shown
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/mental-illness-children
To me the telling definition or question; is the approach open to be
as erroneous. Religion and pseudo science share closed, belief basedclear
conclusions. Pseudo science in particular likes to borrow terms with
meaning and use them to gain credibility. Science may come to mistakenthere
conclusions but it must be open to rational argument. And of course
is such a thing as scientific fraud.track
In terms of this forum however the critical question: are we open to
investigate our emotional reactions and attachments. Are we prepared to
look within.
Monika
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Julie Ulbricht <julie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Dear Monika
I'm not sure that I've read every post on this thread: It is hard to
sometimes and I haven't understood everything that's been said either;but
what I return to is this word: "Pseudoscience", It seems to encapture inof
itself a world view which I react against instinctively.
It seems you used this word with specific intent and somehow innocently
the baggage many of us attach to the word, which is around thelegitimising
of certain methods of enquiry over others.has
I am currently immersed deeply in the work of the psychiatrist Jerry
Marzinsky who is asking questions outside of the accepted paradigm of
"Science" which was and is predicated on the belief that mental illness
a biological origin. As far as I can ascertain there is nothingwhatsoever
that is scientific about this belief.---------------------------------------------------------------------------
So this is the ants nest that you stepped into Monika
warmly
Julie
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
society." Krishnamurti
Simple Ayurveda
Julie Ulbricht BSc Ayurveda, PG Dip Ayurvedic Medicine
07529 549589
julie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
simpleayurveda.co.uk<http://www.simpleayurveda.co.uk>
I
From: constellationtalk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <
constellationtalk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Joshua Alexander <
egomagickian@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: 21 October 2021 03:44:54
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [constellationtalk] Re: Pseudoscience
Hello Dan and All,
First I would like to say that for some strange reason email replies at
times are truncated on this forum. Maybe freelist.org maybe yahoo, maybe
gremlins, maybe even me - I don't know.
In any case I would like to say Dan that I too re-read your comment, and
didn't see you saying anywhere that slavery was imposed by Christianity.forum
This is also relevant to your below comment as far as people do seem to
have blind spots and amazing misunderstandings. So by virtue of this
my comments were addressed at the many constellation facilitators whoseem
to have a predilection to make very questionable assertions as to whypart
constellation works. Magical, dream like fantasy trips are absolutely
of the Constellation / Psychodrama process and the healing journey. I ampractitioners
not disputing that for a minute, on the contrary. But to mix all kinds of
Multi Dimensional, Quantum Genetic DNA pseudoscience into a rational
argument undermines acceptance and respect for the whole modality.
Now I had my two cents worth, and I do not expect any change. There must
be deeper and larger forces (not least financial) compelling
to propose unsupported explanations. My original invitation was to simplybe
explore this religious attraction to pseudoscience. I also feel Tanja's
soothing words did have a stronger impact, without which people may not
willing to look.subject
Monika
You received this message because you're subscribed to the
ConstellationTalk email list. To unsubscribe, visit
https://www.freelists.org/list/constellationtalk or email
constellationtalk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with "unsubscribe" in the
line. The list archive, going back to 2003, is at*Alison P. Fornés*
https://www.freelists.org/archive/constellationtalk.
--
I'm here for joyful, intentional, multi-dimensional co-creation, *just for
the pleasure of it*!
You received this message because you're subscribed to the
ConstellationTalk email list. To unsubscribe, visit
https://www.freelists.org/list/constellationtalk or email
constellationtalk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with "unsubscribe" in the subject
line. The list archive, going back to 2003, is at
https://www.freelists.org/archive/constellationtalk.
