[audacity4blind] Re: Keyboard commands do not work
- From: Gale Andrews <gale@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: audacity4blind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:55:24 GMT
Gene,
Thanks for your feedback. Your point about being able to move the
cursor, label or other marker by a set, small amount irrespective of
zoom level is noted, though the current scheme where the nudging of
the selection or cursor depends on zoom level is often useful too.
While your feedback is valuable, I think much of what you are
experiencing is simply using an application you are not used to after
long familiarity with other applications. Your ideas will be counted in
our Feature Requests system, but nothing will change in the immediate
future because our first priority is to quash some important project
re-opening bugs and then release a new 2.0 "stable" version. So
David's and my comments are directed at helping you make the best
of Audacity as it is now.
You speak of:
"the ability to issue a command to hear the file play from exactly where
the left selection point is and play a few seconds farther into the file
and to be able to do the same thing where I set the end selection point."
You can do this now as described, but Audacity's markers are labels
so if you want to add a "marker" you have to use a label. Or work with
a selection and refine the left and right edge of the selection.
I occasionally use Goldwave and MP3DirectCut and am looking now
at Goldwave. It has multiple methods of setting markers, which I find
very confusing without taking time to learn the program. Some methods
depend on mouse position, all seem to set selections but the playback
cursor is dissociated from the selection. You can't play the same part
again because stop sets the cursor at the stop position. You can't
nudge a second time with ] without playing.
Left and right in Audacity's Selection Toolbar move to the previous
and next digit respectively in the current control, so they can't be
used to increment the digit (same in "Set Marker" in Goldwave).
You can type the digit instead of using up or down to increment.
Personally I find it easier to nudge the cursor with the [ shortcut.
Gale
| From "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
| Tue, 8 Nov 2011 08:29:23 -0600
| Subject: Keyboard commands do not work
> thanks for your explanation. I may experiment with the start and end
> settings and movement interface.
>
> It appears from your comments that editing is considerably more intuitive
> for sighted users and requires considerably less learning. the methods
> you describe require, in my view, too much learning for the casual blind
> user and I also find the idea of using the up and down arrows for what is
> left and right movement through a file to be counterintuitive and
> annoying. Also, it is inconsistent. You use the left and right arrow
> keys to move the cursor, as expected, when moving in the track view, but
> the up and down arrows for movement in the start and end interface you
> described. It may be necessary to use these keys because of the structure
> of the interface but I still find it an annoying idea, from the standpoint
> of not having used the interface before. I'm not saying that blind users
> can't get used to this and perhaps rather easily but I consider it one
> more annoyance for the casual blind user.
>
> I believe that an interface such as is available in Mp3 Direct Cut should
> be added to make the program easy to use for editing by a casual blind
> user who doesn't want to do the learning required to edit using the
> current interface. It just shouldn't be that convoluted to do simple
> editing. this isn't an accessibility issue, it's a question of ease of
> use and convenience for the casual blind user. Also, those who have
> previously used Gold Wave and/or Mp3 Direct Cut might be more likely to
> try audacity if such provisions were made.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Bailes" <david_bailes@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <audacity4blind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 4:00 AM
> > Hi Gene,
> > Re the play cut preview command, which has the keystroke C. It isn't on
> > the transport menu, and probably should be, so that people can find it
> > without having to read the manual. In the preferences dialog, under the
> > playback category you can set both the time before and after the selection
> > that is played for the play cut preview command. So if you wanted to hear
> > a few seconds after the end selection point, you could set the preview
> > before cut region to 0, and the preview after cut region to a few seconds.
> >
> > Re moving the the start and end of selection by tiny increments. You're
> > right - as the length of recording increases, the increments of the
> > keystrokes also increase. Sighted users can get round this by using the
> > zoom in audacity which reduces the increments. Users of screen readers
> > could use the zoom, but it's far from ideal as they obviously get no
> > visual feedback on the degree of zoom.
> > However, the selection start and selection end/length controls on the
> > selection bar provide a very good alternative. These are slightly more
> > complex to use, but provide a large amount of control over how much the
> > selection start and end points are moved by. These controls are described
> > in detail in the selection bar section of the jaws guide to audacity
> > 1.3.13, but the following is a brief summary.
> > 1. If the current focus is the tracks, then you can get to the selection
> > bar by pressing ctrl+f6, and when you want to return to the tracks press
> > ctrl+f6 twice.
> > 2. You can move around the controls on the selection bar by pressing tab.
> > 3. There's a start selection control and selection control for either the
> > end or the length of the selection depending on the setting of the pair of
> > end/length radio buttons.
> > 4. You'll want to have the format of the selection controls set to the
> > hh:mm:ss + milliseconds format, and you can set this by using the context
> > menu of either the start selection or the end/length selection controls.
> > Once this has be set, the setting will remain that unless you change it
> > again, so you'll probably only have to do this once.
> > 5. Set the end/length radio buttons to end, because you want to adjust
> > the start and end of the selection independently. (If it's set to length,
> > then if you change the selection start, then the end will move, because
> > the length has remained unchanged).
> > 6. You can now make ajustments using the selection start and selection end
> > controls. So for example if you're in the selection start control. You can
> > quickly move to the tenths of seconds digit by pressing end, and then left
> > arrrow twice. You can then use up and down arrows to move the selection
> > start tenths of a second to the right or left respectively. Want to move
> > by larger increments? Simply press left arrow to move to the seconds
> > digit, and use up and down arrows again. Similarly, to move by smaller
> > increments, move to the hundredths of seconds digit. While the focus is in
> > one of these controls you can use all the normal playback commands to
> > listen to your changes.
> >
> > thanks for your feedback,
> > David.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Gene <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: audacity4blind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Tuesday, 8 November 2011, 1:32
> > Subject: [audacity4blind] Re: Keyboard commands do not work
> >
> > I think we are having a miscommunication. I don't want to save a file
> > with labels to mark places for future work. I want to be able to record
> > something, edit it, and save the final version. for example, I may want
> > to remove commercials from a radio broadcast.
> >
> > All of the movement and selection commands you described will work without
> > the use of labels but there is no way to move by the tiny increments I
> > wish to move by. the control left and right arrow and control shift left
> > and right arrow commands move by perhaps seven seconds, as a rough guess.
> > that makes doing precise editing cumbersome. The c command you discuss
> > provides a preview of what an edit will sound like and is useful. I
> > didn't know about that command before. But it doesn't provide the
> > intuitive means of working with the material as what I described in
> > earlier messages does, that is, the ability to issue a command to hear the
> > file play from exactly where the left selection point is and play a few
> > seconds farther into the file and to be able to do the same thing where I
> > set the end selection point.
> >
> > Gene
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gale Andrews" <gale@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <audacity4blind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 11:58 AM
> >>
> >> Gene,
> >>
> >> In Audacity, labels are the primary method for marking a point or
> >> region in the waveform. Use CTRL + B to add a label at the cursor
> >> point or region, or CTRL + M to add a label at the playback position.
> >> Labels can also carry text.
> >>
> >> I've explained how to expand or contract the selection, which is the
> >> same as "moving the markers" except that there isn't a marker until
> >> you label that the selection.
> >>
> >> I think "markers in the waveform" might be more intuitive for you
> >> as you would be able to move the markers as you describe. Meantime
> >> I would suggest you give labels a try; label the selection when you
> >> have it exactly at the correct position.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Gale
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> | From "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> | Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:36:59 -0600
> >> | Subject: Keyboard commands do not work
> >>> I'm not sure what you are describing when you ask what I want to vote
> >>> for
> >>> regarding markers. I think what you are describing is what I want or
> >>> at
> >>> least most of what I want.
> >>>
> >>> When experimenting with editing in audacity, I haven't worked with the
> >>> label track. I have set the left cursor using left bracket while a
> >>> file
> >>> is playing and then set the right marker or end point by using right
> >>> bracket while the file is playing, thus selecting a block of material
> >>> that
> >>> can be worked with. I want to be able to do that and then be able to
> >>> move
> >>> the markers as you can in Mp3 Direct Cut, goldwave, and I would imagine
> >>> many other programs. If that is what you are asking, the answer is
> >>> yes.
> >>> Simple editing should be made easy and intuitive. Audacity, in my
> >>> strong
> >>> opinion, makes simple editing convoluted and unintuitive and I find it
> >>> cumbersome and unpleasant to work with.
> >>>
> >>> Gene
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Gale Andrews" <gale@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <audacity4blind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 10:06 AM
> >>> >
> >>> > | From "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> > | Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:18:41 -0600
> >>> > | Subject: Keyboard commands do not work
> >>> >> audacity doesn't allow you to hear where the markers are set by
> >>> issuing
> >>> >> commands that play a few seconds of the file from where the markers
> >>> are
> >>> >> set forward. Mp3 Direct Cut has such commands so after you set the
> >>> >> markers, you can hear both locations, there is a command to play
> >>> from
> >>> >> the
> >>> >> location of the start marker forward and a command to play from the
> >>> end
> >>> >> marker forward.
> >>> >
> >>> > You can label points, use TAB to navigate between them (when focus
> >>> > is in the label track), close the label with ENTER then SHIFT + right
> >>> > arrow to draw a selection of a known length which you can play.
> >>> >
> >>> > If you work with a selection you want to cut, C plays a known Cut
> >>> > Preview length (set in Playback Preferences) before and after the
> >>> > selection. You can expand the selection boundaries using SHIFT
> >>> > and left/right arrow or contract them with SHIFT + CTRL +
> >>> > left/right arrow.
> >>> >
> >>> > Sighted users can play between cursor and mouse pointer using
> >>> > B.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> Also, you can move the markers to the left or right by
> >>> >> tiny increments, perhaps as little as a sixteenth or an eighth of a
> >>> >> second
> >>> >> by pressing keys that move each marker forward and backward. In
> >>> other
> >>> >> words, if you want to move the left marker forward or back, you can
> >>> use
> >>> >> one key to move it forward and another to move it back. The right
> >>> >> marker
> >>> >> has two keys that do the same thing. So after you set the markers,
> >>> you
> >>> >> can move them by tiny increments to set them precisely. You can
> >>> move
> >>> >> them
> >>> >> by larger amounts by repeatedly pressing these keys or by just
> >>> holding
> >>> >> down one of the keys so the repeat key function in Windows will move
> >>> the
> >>> >> marker.
> >>> >
> >>> > Again, you can nudge the cursor in Audacity with left/right arrow but
> >>> > to mark these cursor points you have to label them first.
> >>> >
> >>> > Do you want to vote for "markers in the waveform" that stay there
> >>> > once dropped? It's a popular request (usually by people who are used
> >>> > to "mark in" and "mark out" points in other editors).
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> Also, for some reason, it appears you can't move markers until a
> >>> file
> >>> >> has
> >>> >> been exported, then opened again. I don't know what happens if you
> >>> save
> >>> >> a
> >>> >> file in the proprietary Audacity format and then open it again but
> >>> if
> >>> >> you
> >>> >> record something and try to move the markers, you can't. If you
> >>> export
> >>> >> the file as a wave file or some other format, then open it again
> >>> after
> >>> >> closing and reopening audacity, you can move the markers. this may
> >>> be a
> >>> >> real waste of time and a real annoyance when working with long
> >>> >> recordings.
> >>> >
> >>> > What markers are you talking about here? The easiest VI way to move
> >>> > labels is Tracks > Edit Labels.
> >>> >
> >>> > The main argument for using MP3DirectCut is actually that it is not
> >>> > lossy; MP3 DirectCut edits the MP3 directly so does not re-encode it
> >>> > leading to quality loss as Audacity does. On the other hand, that
> >>> > restricts you in MP3DirectCut to cut/copy/paste and volume edits
> >>> > and not much more.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Gale
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