Hello you all,
First of all: I know from Bert Hellinger that "sending out the perpetrators" was his early work. The last couple of years his interest has been more and more towards the field of prepetrator and victim and since he works with the movement of the soul, I have never seen him sending out perpetrators any more. He even got into big trouble in Germany by openly ask himself the philosofical question about Hitler: if I hate you how can I been in peace with myself? (these are my own words, I do not quite recall the exact phrase).
Anyway, the way I see it is that if the universe provides good and evil, we all have the capacity for both ways. And I think it is very healthy to see and acknowledge that I/you/we all are able to kill of do other horrible things. Dan's case below is a beautifull example for this.
A bit closer to home - only knowing my own destructive powers puts me in the position of being able to handle them. Otherwise they have power over me. So sending out a perpetrator is a way of saying: I am better, I would never do this. In that way I can be and stay innocent (and someone else in the system goes on suffering).
Also in the constellations I witness very often that once you have found what was going on at the core of the familytrauma, and the most horrible things are spoken out loudly and are being acknowledged, a lot of openess and relaxation comes into the constellation. There is no need any more to sent out anyone than. The work is nearly done by than.
Greetings,
Otteline van Zuilekom-Lamet
Op 26-sep-05 om 8:13 heeft gary stuart het volgende geschreven:
<x-tad-smaller>yes, yes, yes.brilliant Dan I agree. this is one of the most important traps facilitators can fall into. being rigid in a belief being right in thinking for the Field but not being tuned in to the soul and the deep love that comes with suffering etc...I had responded similarly. The soul is an undulating, pulsating morphogenic field and what may be true in one case is actually the opposite in another. I had one case where a fathers was enraged at his neighbor and killed him for wrongfully touching his daughter. Feeling victimized he was shot in self defense by the neighbor he was going to attack? who is the victim and who was the perpetrator???? As it turned out the mother was falsely accusing him (neighbor) out of paranoia from her own family system and was forcing her husband to right the wrong for her. (Doubleshift) The killer became the victim in a nanosecond of a gunshot. Yet he still was perpetrating the violence which caused his own demise. Now we can see the delicate entanglement of victim/ perpetrator/ victim here. A real mess. The client got to honor her fathers caring and accepting his fate as a bitter lesson from gossip. He was essentially a perpetrator who became a victim by falsely accusing a neighbor of something he didn't do. Does that make the neighbor a perpetrator for killing in self defense? I think not but the perpetrator became a victim both simultaneously.. The real perpetrator here was his wife the mother of the girl. Confusing I know... but this work is unique and DELICATE as it defies description and TLC for each case we are playing with peoples lives and wellbeing for the duration and NO Formula fits that responsibility other than love for all parties concerned. Perpetrator, victims, living and dead remember everything is ultimately equal. Sincerely GARY STUART LA, CA</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>----- Original Message -----</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>From:</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>Dan Booth Cohen</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>To:</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> </x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Sent:</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:41 PM</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Subject:</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: The place of perpretrators</x-tad-smaller>
Who is a perpetrator? Who is not a perpetrator? Who is to judge?
One caution is not to turn what we observe in the field of Constellations into fixed rules. We are always working with a particular client and a particular system looking for a healing movement. When I work, I am never wiser than the field, so I keep a very light grip on my rules about what can or cannot be done.
I’d be interested in a definition of “who is perpetrator?” that does not include everyone or reciprocally, a definition of “who is innocent?” that includes anyone. You can go to one extreme to say, “A rapist is a perpetrator.” Okay. But what about a young man who has consensual sex and abandons his soon-to-be pregnant girlfriend? What about any man who has sex with a woman to fulfill his own body’s desire without concern for her physical and emotional well-being? Where do you draw the line to define an innocent sexual act? There are 6 billion living humans. How many would there be if there were no sexual perpetrators? Not very many. The whopping cranes would out-number us.
You can say, “A murderer is a perpetrator.” Okay. Is every soldier a perpetrator? Is every carnivore? Is everyone who wears sneakers and buys gasoline a perpetrator? Who has greater guilt than a child whose mother died giving birth? What about the babies who ruined their mother’s careers or forced them into forlorn marriages? Are they perpetrators? When you consider that the perpetrators of the worst atrocities have the clearest conscience it becomes difficult to sort out without standing in judgment.
What I see is that everyone is somebody’s victim and somebody’s perpetrator. I bow to all of it. I honor all of it.
I’ve mentioned before a Constellation for an African-American mother whose son has a life-threatening illness. The father and grandfather had died young of drug overdoses. I setup a line of male ancestors and they all fell to the ground, except for one. The son stood at one end of the line, teetering, barely able to stand. At the other end, a representative stood rock solid and strong. I asked him if he felt guilty. He replied he had nothing to feel guilty about. He was the perpetrator of slavery, and also a rapist, which is how he became a member of the male lineage. I didn’t send him out of the room. Maybe I could have. Instead, I had him look at his descendents laying on the floor, his sons, grandchildren, and so on, who had paid such a heavy price for their paternity. Then, he claimed his guilt. When he did so, he was able to connect with this living man and the man was able to stay standing. In this case we honored the perpetrator in the family. The mother was grateful.
Dan
<x-tad-smaller>-----Original Message-----</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>From:</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>On Behalf Of </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>Nicholas Vagiakakos</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Sent:</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:37 PM</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>To:</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Subject:</x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller> RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: The place of perpretrators</x-tad-smaller>
I would like to contribute to this very interesting systemic subject, which on its own reveals a hidden paradox (as Thomas wondered about it) : "how perpetrators can be excluded by their own family system and on the same time to be aknowledged and honoured by them"...
They cannot. Perpetrators are excluding THEMSELVES from their own family system - by the making of their own act against the life of one or more human beings - and they are NOT honoured by anyone!
Perpetrators are only aknowledged by their own family: in this way, they are given permission by the other family members to leave the family system. Then, no family place is left behind empty, becuse in systemic terms, no one having actually acted (or even attempted to, as in the case of rape) to take away the life of another person belongs to his own family system. This is true, because the perpetrator acted against LIFE - so, reciprocaly, LIFE (which has been given as a gift to the perpetrator himself, being born in that family system) is withdrawing from the perpetrator's systemic identity the right for him to belong to his own family.
That is why, a new system is opening up for the perpetrator: that of the victim's... That is why the bonding between them two is so strong and so obvious, as we experience it in the Constellations. Now, the victim (and his family) should aknowledge ONLY the new place of loyalty within the boundaries of their own family system: that which is determined by the perpetrator-victim bonding and the belonging of the one to the other... In other words, members of both family systems are BOWING only to their FATE... never bowing to the perpetrator.
Thank you very much for the opportunity this wonderful group is giving me to contribute, with the above sharing, to our mutual systemic-thinking deepening.
With bery best regards,
Nicholas M Vagiakakos, Athens, Greece
<i.p.ememail.gif>Nikos
<x-tad-smaller>From: </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>"tmasthenes13" <TomBuoyed@xxxxxxx></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Reply-To: </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>To: </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Subject: </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>[ConstellationTalk] Re: bow to perpretrators</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Date: </x-tad-smaller><x-tad-smaller>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:14:03 -0000</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>> Although it is rare but some facilitators would ask clients</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>> (decendents of Perpretrators or victims ) to bow to perpretrators</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>e.g. Murderers.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>> However, Bert Hellinger in the past used to let the perpretrators</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>> just left the system physically. In some books, Bert mentioned</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>that no one within in a family can be excluded except perpetrators.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>> Anyone can comment on this issue?</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>></x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>> Simon HO</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>_____________________</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Simon,</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Thank you for asking these questions, as I have similar confusion</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>about the place of perpetrators in the system and how are they to be</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>excluded yet not excluded.</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>I have a further confusion about the perpetrators. What is the</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>difference between someone who murders a victim in the same family</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>and someone who murders a stranger from another family system?</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>I understand that a murderer from another family system becomes part</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>of the victim's family system. Does the murderer need to be</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>acknowledged and honored and then excluded by the victim's family</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>memebrs? What happens to the murderer's family system? How do they</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>not exclude the person who has clearly excluded himself by the act of</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>murder?</x-tad-smaller>
<x-tad-smaller>Thomas</x-tad-smaller>
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