thanks for even more clarity on this hot subject....UNCONDITIONAL love INCLUDES
hate, otherwise it would be conditional to exclude hate?
Sincerely Gary Stuart LA, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: Otteline van Zuilekom-Lamet
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: The place of perpretrators
Hello you all,
First of all: I know from Bert Hellinger that "sending out the perpetrators"
was his early work. The last couple of years his interest has been more and
more towards the field of prepetrator and victim and since he works with the
movement of the soul, I have never seen him sending out perpetrators any more.
He even got into big trouble in Germany by openly ask himself the philosofical
question about Hitler: if I hate you how can I been in peace with myself?
(these are my own words, I do not quite recall the exact phrase).
Anyway, the way I see it is that if the universe provides good and evil, we
all have the capacity for both ways. And I think it is very healthy to see and
acknowledge that I/you/we all are able to kill of do other horrible things.
Dan's case below is a beautifull example for this.
A bit closer to home - only knowing my own destructive powers puts me in the
position of being able to handle them. Otherwise they have power over me. So
sending out a perpetrator is a way of saying: I am better, I would never do
this. In that way I can be and stay innocent (and someone else in the system
goes on suffering).
Also in the constellations I witness very often that once you have found what
was going on at the core of the familytrauma, and the most horrible things are
spoken out loudly and are being acknowledged, a lot of openess and relaxation
comes into the constellation. There is no need any more to sent out anyone
than. The work is nearly done by than.
Greetings,
Otteline van Zuilekom-Lamet
Op 26-sep-05 om 8:13 heeft gary stuart het volgende geschreven:
yes, yes, yes.brilliant Dan I agree. this is one of the most important
traps facilitators can fall into. being rigid in a belief being right in
thinking for the Field but not being tuned in to the soul and the deep love
that comes with suffering etc...I had responded similarly. The soul is an
undulating, pulsating morphogenic field and what may be true in one case is
actually the opposite in another. I had one case where a fathers was enraged at
his neighbor and killed him for wrongfully touching his daughter. Feeling
victimized he was shot in self defense by the neighbor he was going to attack?
who is the victim and who was the perpetrator???? As it turned out the mother
was falsely accusing him (neighbor) out of paranoia from her own family system
and was forcing her husband to right the wrong for her. (Doubleshift) The
killer became the victim in a nanosecond of a gunshot. Yet he still was
perpetrating the violence which caused his own demise. Now we can see the
delicate entanglement of victim/ perpetrator/ victim here. A real mess. The
client got to honor her fathers caring and accepting his fate as a bitter
lesson from gossip. He was essentially a perpetrator who became a victim by
falsely accusing a neighbor of something he didn't do. Does that make the
neighbor a perpetrator for killing in self defense? I think not but the
perpetrator became a victim both simultaneously.. The real perpetrator here was
his wife the mother of the girl. Confusing I know... but this work is unique
and DELICATE as it defies description and TLC for each case we are playing with
peoples lives and wellbeing for the duration and NO Formula fits that
responsibility other than love for all parties concerned. Perpetrator, victims,
living and dead remember everything is ultimately equal. Sincerely GARY STUART
LA, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Booth Cohen
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: The place of perpretrators
Who is a perpetrator? Who is not a perpetrator? Who is to judge?
One caution is not to turn what we observe in the field of Constellations
into fixed rules. We are always working with a particular client and a
particular system looking for a healing movement. When I work, I am never
wiser than the field, so I keep a very light grip on my rules about what can or
cannot be done.
I’d be interested in a definition of “who is perpetrator?” that does not
include everyone or reciprocally, a definition of “who is innocent?” that
includes anyone. You can go to one extreme to say, “A rapist is a
perpetrator.” Okay. But what about a young man who has consensual sex and
abandons his soon-to-be pregnant girlfriend? What about any man who has sex
with a woman to fulfill his own body’s desire without concern for her physical
and emotional well-being? Where do you draw the line to define an innocent
sexual act? There are 6 billion living humans. How many would there be if
there were no sexual perpetrators? Not very many. The whopping cranes would
out-number us.
You can say, “A murderer is a perpetrator.” Okay. Is every soldier a
perpetrator? Is every carnivore? Is everyone who wears sneakers and buys
gasoline a perpetrator? Who has greater guilt than a child whose mother died
giving birth? What about the babies who ruined their mother’s careers or
forced them into forlorn marriages? Are they perpetrators? When you consider
that the perpetrators of the worst atrocities have the clearest conscience it
becomes difficult to sort out without standing in judgment.
What I see is that everyone is somebody’s victim and somebody’s
perpetrator. I bow to all of it. I honor all of it.
I’ve mentioned before a Constellation for an African-American mother
whose son has a life-threatening illness. The father and grandfather had died
young of drug overdoses. I setup a line of male ancestors and they all fell to
the ground, except for one. The son stood at one end of the line, teetering,
barely able to stand. At the other end, a representative stood rock solid and
strong. I asked him if he felt guilty. He replied he had nothing to feel
guilty about. He was the perpetrator of slavery, and also a rapist, which is
how he became a member of the male lineage. I didn’t send him out of the room.
Maybe I could have. Instead, I had him look at his descendents laying on the
floor, his sons, grandchildren, and so on, who had paid such a heavy price for
their paternity. Then, he claimed his guilt. When he did so, he was able to
connect with this living man and the man was able to stay standing. In this
case we honored the perpetrator in the family. The mother was grateful.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nicholas Vagiakakos
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:37 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: The place of perpretrators
I would like to contribute to this very interesting systemic subject,
which on its own reveals a hidden paradox (as Thomas wondered about it) : "how
perpetrators can be excluded by their own family system and on the same time to
be aknowledged and honoured by them"...
They cannot. Perpetrators are excluding THEMSELVES from their own family
system - by the making of their own act against the life of one or more human
beings - and they are NOT honoured by anyone!
Perpetrators are only aknowledged by their own family: in this way, they
are given permission by the other family members to leave the family system.
Then, no family place is left behind empty, becuse in systemic terms, no one
having actually acted (or even attempted to, as in the case of rape) to take
away the life of another person belongs to his own family system. This is true,
because the perpetrator acted against LIFE - so, reciprocaly, LIFE (which has
been given as a gift to the perpetrator himself, being born in that family
system) is withdrawing from the perpetrator's systemic identity the right for
him to belong to his own family.
That is why, a new system is opening up for the perpetrator: that of the
victim's... That is why the bonding between them two is so strong and so
obvious, as we experience it in the Constellations. Now, the victim (and his
family) should aknowledge ONLY the new place of loyalty within the boundaries
of their own family system: that which is determined by the perpetrator-victim
bonding and the belonging of the one to the other... In other words, members of
both family systems are BOWING only to their FATE... never bowing to the
perpetrator.
Thank you very much for the opportunity this wonderful group is giving me
to contribute, with the above sharing, to our mutual systemic-thinking
deepening.
With bery best regards,
Nicholas M Vagiakakos, Athens, Greece
<i.p.ememail.gif>Nikos
From: "tmasthenes13" <TomBuoyed@xxxxxxx>
Reply-To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: bow to perpretrators
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:14:03 -0000
> Although it is rare but some facilitators would ask clients
> (decendents of Perpretrators or victims ) to bow to perpretrators
e.g. Murderers.
>
> However, Bert Hellinger in the past used to let the perpretrators
> just left the system physically. In some books, Bert mentioned
that no one within in a family can be excluded except perpetrators.
>
> Anyone can comment on this issue?
>
> Simon HO
_____________________
Simon,
Thank you for asking these questions, as I have similar confusion
about the place of perpetrators in the system and how are they to be
excluded yet not excluded.
I have a further confusion about the perpetrators. What is the
difference between someone who murders a victim in the same family
and someone who murders a stranger from another family system?
I understand that a murderer from another family system becomes part
of the victim's family system. Does the murderer need to be
acknowledged and honored and then excluded by the victim's family
memebrs? What happens to the murderer's family system? How do they
not exclude the person who has clearly excluded himself by the act of
murder?
Thomas
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Peter en Otteline van Zuilekom-Lamet
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