What happened to giving everyone a place in your heart? Everything may be true
but they also are human AND may be the head of the family system as well? Will
the system survive in tact because it is morally correct to banish the
perpetrator? Will a future descendent then be aligned with the excluded
one/perpetrator? Remember in the eyes of the Nazi's they were doing a good
thing for Germany... I've even met holocaust victims who believed Adolph had a
better plan and he killed many others before he got to his last enemy the Jew's
which were after 4 million Homosexuals, gypsy's and others deemed less than
desirable etc... 10 million is all. Hitler's relatives loved uncle Adolph too?
It would be nice to have it all cut and dry but every action has a reaction and
should be considered with love and the greater soul that may have guided this
man to do heinous acts for reasons beyond our comprehension. I think Bert seems
to be more on this wavelength lately from what I hear in the US...Every thing
you say may be correct. I'm just commenting on other ways to look at it. In my
training with Heinz Stark we often saw the actions of a man separate from the
creator of the system kind of doubling up the good and evil as 2 rolled into
one. Then you can have the parent AND the monster which may have been his
righteous job killing for some "ISM" not to mention the progeny suffering for
their Fathers actions to compensate as well for his victims. It gets very
sticky here. Sincerest love, Gary Stuart LA,CA
PS What about bowing for the life you got from the perpetrator AND letting him
have his dignity to carry what he has done without judgment from the littler
ones who received life in spite of it? Remember judging makes us BIGGER than
our creator/perpetrator which then puts us out of the order of love as well. I
recent read a phrase the GOD EATS MEN for FOOD. Hummm....
----- Original Message -----
From: Nicholas Vagiakakos
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: The place of perpretrators
I would like to contribute to this very interesting systemic subject, which
on its own reveals a hidden paradox (as Thomas wondered about it) : "how
perpetrators can be excluded by their own family system and on the same time to
be aknowledged and honoured by them"...
They cannot. Perpetrators are excluding THEMSELVES from their own family
system - by the making of their own act against the life of one or more human
beings - and they are NOT honoured by anyone!
Perpetrators are only aknowledged by their own family: in this way, they are
given permission by the other family members to leave the family system. Then,
no family place is left behind empty, becuse in systemic terms, no one having
actually acted (or even attempted to, as in the case of rape) to take away the
life of another person belongs to his own family system. This is true, because
the perpetrator acted against LIFE - so, reciprocaly, LIFE (which has been
given as a gift to the perpetrator himself, being born in that family system)
is withdrawing from the perpetrator's systemic identity the right for him to
belong to his own family.
That is why, a new system is opening up for the perpetrator: that of the
victim's... That is why the bonding between them two is so strong and so
obvious, as we experience it in the Constellations. Now, the victim (and his
family) should aknowledge ONLY the new place of loyalty within the boundaries
of their own family system: that which is determined by the perpetrator-victim
bonding and the belonging of the one to the other... In other words, members of
both family systems are BOWING only to their FATE... never bowing to the
perpetrator.
Thank you very much for the opportunity this wonderful group is giving me to
contribute, with the above sharing, to our mutual systemic-thinking deepening.
With bery best regards,
Nicholas M Vagiakakos, Athens, Greece
Nikos
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "tmasthenes13" <TomBuoyed@xxxxxxx>
Reply-To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: bow to perpretrators
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:14:03 -0000
> Although it is rare but some facilitators would ask clients
> (decendents of Perpretrators or victims ) to bow to perpretrators
e.g. Murderers.
>
> However, Bert Hellinger in the past used to let the perpretrators
> just left the system physically. In some books, Bert mentioned
that no one within in a family can be excluded except perpetrators.
>
> Anyone can comment on this issue?
>
> Simon HO
_____________________
Simon,
Thank you for asking these questions, as I have similar confusion
about the place of perpetrators in the system and how are they to be
excluded yet not excluded.
I have a further confusion about the perpetrators. What is the
difference between someone who murders a victim in the same family
and someone who murders a stranger from another family system?
I understand that a murderer from another family system becomes part
of the victim's family system. Does the murderer need to be
acknowledged and honored and then excluded by the victim's family
memebrs? What happens to the murderer's family system? How do they
not exclude the person who has clearly excluded himself by the act of
murder?
Thomas
SPONSORED LINKS Health and wellness Health wellness product Health and
wellness program
Health promotion and wellness Health and wellness promotion
Business health wellness
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "ConstellationTalk" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ConstellationTalk-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
SPONSORED LINKS Health and wellness Health wellness product Health and
wellness program
Health promotion and wellness Health and wellness promotion Business
health wellness
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "ConstellationTalk" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ConstellationTalk-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
