yes, yes, yes.brilliant Dan I agree. this is one of the most important traps
facilitators can fall into. being rigid in a belief being right in thinking for
the Field but not being tuned in to the soul and the deep love that comes with
suffering etc...I had responded similarly. The soul is an undulating, pulsating
morphogenic field and what may be true in one case is actually the opposite in
another. I had one case where a fathers was enraged at his neighbor and killed
him for wrongfully touching his daughter. Feeling victimized he was shot in
self defense by the neighbor he was going to attack? who is the victim and who
was the perpetrator???? As it turned out the mother was falsely accusing him
(neighbor) out of paranoia from her own family system and was forcing her
husband to right the wrong for her. (Doubleshift) The killer became the victim
in a nanosecond of a gunshot. Yet he still was perpetrating the violence which
caused his own demise. Now we can see the delicate entanglement of victim/
perpetrator/ victim here. A real mess. The client got to honor her fathers
caring and accepting his fate as a bitter lesson from gossip. He was
essentially a perpetrator who became a victim by falsely accusing a neighbor of
something he didn't do. Does that make the neighbor a perpetrator for killing
in self defense? I think not but the perpetrator became a victim both
simultaneously.. The real perpetrator here was his wife the mother of the girl.
Confusing I know... but this work is unique and DELICATE as it defies
description and TLC for each case we are playing with peoples lives and
wellbeing for the duration and NO Formula fits that responsibility other than
love for all parties concerned. Perpetrator, victims, living and dead remember
everything is ultimately equal. Sincerely GARY STUART LA, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Booth Cohen
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: The place of perpretrators
Who is a perpetrator? Who is not a perpetrator? Who is to judge?
One caution is not to turn what we observe in the field of Constellations
into fixed rules. We are always working with a particular client and a
particular system looking for a healing movement. When I work, I am never
wiser than the field, so I keep a very light grip on my rules about what can or
cannot be done.
I'd be interested in a definition of "who is perpetrator?" that does not
include everyone or reciprocally, a definition of "who is innocent?" that
includes anyone. You can go to one extreme to say, "A rapist is a
perpetrator." Okay. But what about a young man who has consensual sex and
abandons his soon-to-be pregnant girlfriend? What about any man who has sex
with a woman to fulfill his own body's desire without concern for her physical
and emotional well-being? Where do you draw the line to define an innocent
sexual act? There are 6 billion living humans. How many would there be if
there were no sexual perpetrators? Not very many. The whopping cranes would
out-number us.
You can say, "A murderer is a perpetrator." Okay. Is every soldier a
perpetrator? Is every carnivore? Is everyone who wears sneakers and buys
gasoline a perpetrator? Who has greater guilt than a child whose mother died
giving birth? What about the babies who ruined their mother's careers or
forced them into forlorn marriages? Are they perpetrators? When you consider
that the perpetrators of the worst atrocities have the clearest conscience it
becomes difficult to sort out without standing in judgment.
What I see is that everyone is somebody's victim and somebody's perpetrator.
I bow to all of it. I honor all of it.
I've mentioned before a Constellation for an African-American mother whose
son has a life-threatening illness. The father and grandfather had died young
of drug overdoses. I setup a line of male ancestors and they all fell to the
ground, except for one. The son stood at one end of the line, teetering,
barely able to stand. At the other end, a representative stood rock solid and
strong. I asked him if he felt guilty. He replied he had nothing to feel
guilty about. He was the perpetrator of slavery, and also a rapist, which is
how he became a member of the male lineage. I didn't send him out of the room.
Maybe I could have. Instead, I had him look at his descendents laying on the
floor, his sons, grandchildren, and so on, who had paid such a heavy price for
their paternity. Then, he claimed his guilt. When he did so, he was able to
connect with this living man and the man was able to stay standing. In this
case we honored the perpetrator in the family. The mother was grateful.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Nicholas Vagiakakos
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:37 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: The place of perpretrators
I would like to contribute to this very interesting systemic subject, which
on its own reveals a hidden paradox (as Thomas wondered about it) : "how
perpetrators can be excluded by their own family system and on the same time to
be aknowledged and honoured by them"...
They cannot. Perpetrators are excluding THEMSELVES from their own family
system - by the making of their own act against the life of one or more human
beings - and they are NOT honoured by anyone!
Perpetrators are only aknowledged by their own family: in this way, they are
given permission by the other family members to leave the family system. Then,
no family place is left behind empty, becuse in systemic terms, no one having
actually acted (or even attempted to, as in the case of rape) to take away the
life of another person belongs to his own family system. This is true, because
the perpetrator acted against LIFE - so, reciprocaly, LIFE (which has been
given as a gift to the perpetrator himself, being born in that family system)
is withdrawing from the perpetrator's systemic identity the right for him to
belong to his own family.
That is why, a new system is opening up for the perpetrator: that of the
victim's... That is why the bonding between them two is so strong and so
obvious, as we experience it in the Constellations. Now, the victim (and his
family) should aknowledge ONLY the new place of loyalty within the boundaries
of their own family system: that which is determined by the perpetrator-victim
bonding and the belonging of the one to the other... In other words, members of
both family systems are BOWING only to their FATE... never bowing to the
perpetrator.
Thank you very much for the opportunity this wonderful group is giving me to
contribute, with the above sharing, to our mutual systemic-thinking deepening.
With bery best regards,
Nicholas M Vagiakakos, Athens, Greece
Nikos
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "tmasthenes13" <TomBuoyed@xxxxxxx>
Reply-To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: bow to perpretrators
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:14:03 -0000
> Although it is rare but some facilitators would ask clients
> (decendents of Perpretrators or victims ) to bow to perpretrators
e.g. Murderers.
>
> However, Bert Hellinger in the past used to let the perpretrators
> just left the system physically. In some books, Bert mentioned
that no one within in a family can be excluded except perpetrators.
>
> Anyone can comment on this issue?
>
> Simon HO
_____________________
Simon,
Thank you for asking these questions, as I have similar confusion
about the place of perpetrators in the system and how are they to be
excluded yet not excluded.
I have a further confusion about the perpetrators. What is the
difference between someone who murders a victim in the same family
and someone who murders a stranger from another family system?
I understand that a murderer from another family system becomes part
of the victim's family system. Does the murderer need to be
acknowledged and honored and then excluded by the victim's family
memebrs? What happens to the murderer's family system? How do they
not exclude the person who has clearly excluded himself by the act of
murder?
Thomas
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