George,
Perhaps one way to address the question of bullets is to have a table of
possible bullet characters. This table should be maintainable by the user
so more characters could be added if necessary. Personally, I'd like to
add more user-maintainable tables in DBT, such as a table of acronyms. I
understand the potential pitfalls, but it's been my experience that most
people will not try to modify something they don't understand, but "power
users" ought to be able to do so.
Steve
On Sunday 5/25/03 08:03 George Bell wrote:
Hi Bill,
I guess we're going to be heading into some very interesting times here with bullets, since the term "Bullet" tends to be generic term referring to anything used to mark items on a list, where previously we might have written 1, 2, 3, or a, b, c.
If a "bullet" is something defined in the Unicode Character set, then again, it does NOT have to have a name or anything which identifies to anyone that it might be used as such.
It is therefore up to the braille importing function to try and make the decision. In some cases, this can be made easier if coming from something like Word, where it has been properly used in a "Bulleted List" say. But if someone simply types a character at the beginning of a normal paragraph, how can we tell?
I'm optimistic that further improvements to DBT 10.5's Word Importer may resolve some issues, but only some.
George.
-----Original Message----- From: duxuser-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:duxuser-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of William Jolley Sent: 24 May 2003 05:18 To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: William Jolley
Hi George
Your comments in your message of a few days ago about whether bullets are characters or graphics are interesting. Of course I was using the term graphic loosely. What defines something as a character? Belonging to the Unicode set? I guess, otherwise it is a graphic.
So this is my perspective: If I compose a document (minutes of a meeting, a report, a paper, etc.), I want it to look right in print and in Braille with a minimum of manual intervention. So for a start I will use Word styles (headings, lists, normal, etc.); and if I am not happy with the DBT styles I can modify them so that the Word styles translate to DBT as I require. Similarly with bullets: I don't really care what print symbols are used for bullets, I just want my document to look good in print. Ideally, I shouldn't have to change the default characters deployed by Word, and I would expect that DBT should recognise the principal characters that Word uses. Or were my bullets unusual (refer to last week's test document)? I certainly do not expect DBT to implement the full Unicode character set with some 20,000 characters.
I do think that the problem of Braille not keeping up with print trends is getting worse. Our dilemma, in Australia: do we try to do something and create further divergence between Braille in Australia and Braille in the UK and the US? do we wait for change in the UK or US? or do we place our faith in the UEBC?
Best wishes
Cheers
Bill
* * *
William Jolley Email: wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx Tel.: 613 9807 5137
----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bell" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: [duxuser] Re: Question about Word and Computer Braille
> Hi Bill, > > I'm going to refer both issues to a higher authority (Joe) for > comment, along with your very helpful test file. > > What I can say is that currently 10.5 (not yet released) converts all > Hyperlink Styles in Word, to compinline in DBT, something SWIFT does > at the moment. > > As regards the dot 4,6 underline being present, again I'll have to > have this checked out. It is technically correct. There is an > underline there. > > Quite honestly, many areas of braille like this are beginning to drive > me crazy. For example, in British braille it clearly states that you > should use dot 6 ing as delimiters in e-mail and web addresses. BAUK > say so, so why should I argue? They are the law. > > And yet RNIB as often as not, do not use the indicators, yet use > computer braille. Needless to say half of my clients thinks RNIB are > correct, just because they are RNIB. Having said that, many BAUK > members have said the same. > > But then again, BAUK say one can use Literary code - just so long as > you are consistent. > > And of course BAUK don't make any mention of underlined web and e-mail > addresses. > > As regards Bullets, can I emphasise that these are NOT graphics? They > are actually characters. In your example, the ANSI Hex value is 0xB7, > which translates to Unicode U+2022. > > The $64,000 question is, "When is a character a bullet, and when is a > character a character?". Do we need to complicate DBT with a massive > Unicode Character Table of exceptions? > > In British Braille 4,5,6 then 2,5,6 will represent a bullet, but it > still doesn't get away from the $64,000 question. > > For example, I could use the telephone character as a bullet, but do I > translate it as a bullet or "Telephone"? > > It's a pity Louis Braille didn't start with a 10 or 12 dot code!! > (Smile) > > George Bell > Techno-Vision Systems Ltd > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: William Jolley [mailto:wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx] > > Sent: 15 May 2003 11:47 > > To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Cc: William Jolley > > > > Hi George > > > > Thanks for your prompt and helpful reply. > > > > Certainly not all of the email addresses and Web references in my > > attachment were in Courier, that was part of my test. > > I also realise that my installed version of Swift is not the latest, > > so now I know that there is an option to do the conversion of these > > things from the default format to Courier. I shall install the new > > version, according to your instructions. later. > > > > I understand about the leading dots 46 when the email address or Web > > reference was not in Courier; but when it was in Courier? > > > > I understand about the circulation delay of my message because of > > the attachment - that's why I sent you a copy of the message > > separately. I agree with the list manager taking care when messages > > with attachments arrive, because sometimes they can indeed be > > hazardous. > > > > Now about the bullets. I agree that DBT cannot happily deal with > > thousands of possibilities, but I would have thought that DBT could > > recognise some graphics that were commonly used. As far as I know I > > am just using the MS-Word default, not some esserteric invention of > > my own. Indeed, the problem would be solved (from my perspective) > > if DBT simply used 99 rather than *99 to indicate an unknown > > character. > > > > Now about comp-in-line and comp-display. In the print document the > > Web reference was on a new line in some instances. In such cases > > for the Braille I would simply want the Braille to start on a new > > line, not with a blank line intervening, and with the computer > > Braille delimiters. > > Perhaps this is a case of writing a specific style myself. A > > problem is that the American computer code was issued in 1987, when > > email addresses were scarce outside the academic and research > > communities, and when Web addresses didn't exist > > - unless they were by that time an embryonic figment of the > > imagination of Tim Berners Lee. This is a problem: > > we cannot expect DBT to extend coding barriers, but nonetheless > > email addresses and Web references occur very frequently in > > documents such as papers and reports. > > > > Thanks again for your help. > > > > With best wishes > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > * * * > > William Jolley > > wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx > > 613 9807 5137 > > * * * > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "George Bell" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 7:52 PM > > Subject: [duxuser] Re: Question about Word and Computer Braille > > > > > > > Hi William, > > > > > > Sorry for the delay in seeing your message being posted. > > Because it > > > had an attachment, one of the moderators (me) had to > > approve it first. > > > I've left it attached as it could be an excellent exercise > > for anyone > > > wanting to do similar. > > > > > > The first observation I have to make is that not all your e-mail > > > addresses were in Courier or Courier New. In fact only 1, > > 3, 5, 7, 9 > > > and 10 were Courier New. Since the remainder were simply > > underlined > > > Times New Roman, the appearance of dots 4,6 is correct. > > > > > > There is then the issue of addresses being either in-line or > > > within text, so to speak; or on a line of their own. Hence the > > "compinline" > > > Style is applied to those within text, and the "compdisplay." > > > Style where they are on a line of their own. This is correct > > according to > > > BANA and BAUK. > > > > > > The strange numbering is rather odd. In some cases, it > > appears that > > > some numbers have been emboldened. I'd need to look at the > > Word file > > > in much more detail to establish what the problem is, but > > for example "13" > > > appears to be a bold 1, and a normal 3. > > > > > > Bullet points are a hairy issue, since just about any of 40,000 > > > odd characters can be used for a bullet. > > > > > > What is actually being generated in your case here is an o grave > > > character in the ANSI character set, which DBT translates > > to ch in in. > > > > > > I believe this will change in 10.5, though I'm not entirely > > sure how > > > the logic is to be applied. BAUK are making some proposals at the > > > moment, which has put this issue up in the air somewhat. > > > > > > As regards SWIFT, if you have DBT 10.4, you should find a > > file called > > > DBT2.DOT in the c:\duxbury folder. If you copy that file > > to your Word > > > or Office startup folder, you will find the utility in Word > > next time > > > you go into Word. It will be an extra menu item called DBT > > or Duxbury. > > > > > > Hope this starts to get you back on track, but let me know if you > > > encounter any more problems. > > > > > > George Bell > > > Techno-Vision Systems Ltd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: William Jolley [mailto:wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx] > > > > Sent: 15 May 2003 08:18 > > > > To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > Cc: William Jolley > > > > > > > > Hello everyone > > > > > > > > This is mainly a question for George. Actually, there are two > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > On Thursday May 15, George Bell wrote: > > > > If you make the web address Courier, you can then ensure > > that prior > > > > to Import, you make sure that in DBT, under Global, Word > > Importer, > > > > you check "Courier to CBC". > > > > ... > > > > If you have SWIFT, there is an option there for dealing with > > > > Hyperlinks. > > > > > > > > George, this didn't work for me. I also cannot find reference > > > > to the Swift option. > > > > > > > > I made a simple file with Times New Roman as the default font. > > > > I changed the email addresses and Web reference to Courier > > New. I got > > > > computer Braille, but I got a starting dots 46, like an > > italic sign > > > > or underline before the first letter. I didn't > > consistently get the > > > > open and close two-cell signs, depending whether the Word > > document > > > > took a new line. With the Web reference I got a blank > > line before > > > > it and no computer code introduction sign. I did get the > > > > continuation symbol. I'm confused what to do to get the email > > > > addresses and Web references to come out correctly from > > an imported > > > > word file, with a minimum of manual intervention. > > > > > > > > The Test File I used is attached, if the attachment gets > > through. > > > > There were also some other anomalies with this file, such as the > > > > list. It's also possible that some styles are slightly out of > > > > place. The numbering in the Braille seemed a bit strange. > > > > > > > > I am using Windows XP-Pro, Word 2000, DBT 10.4 and JFW 4.51. > > > > I'm using the English Australian table - largely British > > contraction > > > > rules with the American computer code. I also tried, > > through Swift, > > > > to use the Standard template with American table. No improvement! > > > > > > > > Hopefully, there is something simple which I am doing wrongly. > > > > Alternatively, I hope that the treatment of email > > addresses and Web > > > > references in Word can be cleaned up in DBT 10.5. > > > > > > > > I want to crack this problem of automating email > > addresses and Web > > > > references. I soon have a document to deal with, one I wrote > > > > myself, that has to go into Braile. It is written with > > styles, so > > > > in theory everything should be okay; but it contains > > almost 200 Web > > > > references, all of which are currently in the default Times New > > > > Roman font as active links. I simply want to avoid manual > > > > intervention on each one, when getting its translation correct > > > > in Braille. Many Web references start on a new line in the > > print, but > > > > I don't want a blank line preceeding them in the Braille. > > > > > > > > Now I have a second matter to raise. I cannot understand why > > > > DBT does not recognise the commonplace bullets used by word. > > > > Is this because Braille doesn't have the requisite symbols to > > > > represent bullets? Can DBT be made to simply use 99 > > rather than *99 > > > > to represent bullets? > > > > > > > > all help is appreciated. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > William Jolley > > > > wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx > > > > 613 9807 5137 > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "George Bell" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > > To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:19 AM > > > > Subject: [duxuser] Re: Question about Word and Computer Braille > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Deb, > > > > > > > > > > If you make the web address Courier, you can then ensure > > > > that prior to > > > > > Import, you make sure that in DBT, under Global, Word > > > > > Importer, you check "Courier to CBC". > > > > > > > > > > However be warned. Nothing else in the Word document > > > > should be Courier. > > > > > > > > > > If you have SWIFT, there is an option there for dealing > > > > with Hyperlinks. > > > > > > > > > > George. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Deborah Barnes > > > > > > [mailto:dbarnes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > > > > > > Sent: 14 May 2003 19:50 > > > > > > To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everybody, > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually I do all my editing from Duxbury but I'm in a > > > > position where > > > > > > I can't access my Duxbury from Word right now so I have > > > > to make my > > > > > > changes in Word. > > > > > > So my question is this: > > > > > > > > > > > > When I'm in Word can I do something to a hyperlink or Web > > > > address so > > > > > > that when I take the document to Duxbury it will > > > > translate into CBC > > > > > > when it's embossed? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Deb B. > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > * This message is via list duxuser at freelists.org. > > > > > > * To unsubscribe, send a blank message with > > > > > > * unsubscribe > > > > > > * as the subject to <duxuser-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>. You may > > > > > > also > > > > > > * subscribe, unsubscribe, and set vacation mode and other > > > > > > subscription > > > > > > * options by visiting //www.freelists.org. The list > > > > > > archive > > > > > > * is also located there. > > > > > > * Duxbury Systems' web site is http://www.duxburysystems.com > > > > > > * * * > > > > > > > > > > > * * * > > > > > * This message is via list duxuser at freelists.org. > > > > > * To unsubscribe, send a blank message with > > > > > * unsubscribe > > > > > * as the subject to <duxuser-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>. > > You may also > > > > > * subscribe, unsubscribe, and set vacation mode and other > > > > subscription > > > > > * options by visiting //www.freelists.org. 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The list archive > > * is also located there. > > * Duxbury Systems' web site is http://www.duxburysystems.com > > * * * > > > * * * > * This message is via list duxuser at freelists.org. > * To unsubscribe, send a blank message with > * unsubscribe > * as the subject to <duxuser-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>. You may also > * subscribe, unsubscribe, and set vacation mode and other subscription > * options by visiting //www.freelists.org. The list archive > * is also located there. > * Duxbury Systems' web site is http://www.duxburysystems.com > * * *
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