[duxuser] Re: Question about Word and Computer Braille
- From: "George Bell" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:58:53 +0100
Hi Steve,
Good thinking, ands certainly one we'll put into the melting pot.
There is a version of SWIFT which allows you to create acronym tables.
George.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Dresser [mailto:s.dresser@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: 27 May 2003 15:45
> To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> George,
>
> Perhaps one way to address the question of bullets is to have
> a table of possible bullet characters. This table should be
> maintainable by the user so more characters could be added if
> necessary. Personally, I'd like to add more
> user-maintainable tables in DBT, such as a table of acronyms.
> I understand the potential pitfalls, but it's been my
> experience that most people will not try to modify something
> they don't understand, but "power users" ought to be able to do so.
>
> Steve
>
> On Sunday 5/25/03 08:03 George Bell wrote:
> >Hi Bill,
> >
> >I guess we're going to be heading into some very interesting
> >times here with bullets, since the term "Bullet" tends to be
> >generic term referring to anything used to mark items on a
> >list, where previously we might have written 1, 2, 3, or a,
> >b, c.
> >
> >If a "bullet" is something defined in the Unicode Character
> >set, then again, it does NOT have to have a name or anything
> >which identifies to anyone that it might be used as such.
> >
> >It is therefore up to the braille importing function to try
> >and make the decision. In some cases, this can be made
> >easier if coming from something like Word, where it has been
> >properly used in a "Bulleted List" say. But if someone
> >simply types a character at the beginning of a normal
> >paragraph, how can we tell?
> >
> >I'm optimistic that further improvements to DBT 10.5's Word
> >Importer may resolve some issues, but only some.
> >
> >George.
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: duxuser-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >[mailto:duxuser-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of William
> >Jolley
> >Sent: 24 May 2003 05:18
> >To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Cc: William Jolley
> >
> >Hi George
> >
> >Your comments in your message of a few days ago about
> >whether bullets are characters or graphics are interesting.
> >Of course I was using the term graphic loosely. What
> >defines something as a character? Belonging to the Unicode
> >set? I guess, otherwise it is a graphic.
> >
> >So this is my perspective: If I compose a document (minutes
> >of a meeting, a report, a paper, etc.), I want it to look
> >right in print and in Braille with a minimum of manual
> >intervention. So for a start I will use Word styles
> >(headings, lists, normal, etc.); and if I am not happy with
> >the DBT styles I can modify them so that the Word styles
> >translate to DBT as I require. Similarly with bullets: I
> >don't really care what print symbols are used for bullets, I
> >just want my document to look good in print. Ideally, I
> >shouldn't have to change the default characters deployed by
> >Word, and I would expect that DBT should recognise the
> >principal characters that Word uses. Or were my bullets
> >unusual (refer to last week's test document)? I certainly
> >do not expect DBT to implement the full Unicode character
> >set with some 20,000 characters.
> >
> >I do think that the problem of Braille not keeping up with
> >print trends is getting worse.
> >Our dilemma, in Australia: do we try to do something and
> >create further divergence between Braille in Australia and
> >Braille in the UK and the US? do we wait for change in the
> >UK or US? or do we place our faith in the UEBC?
> >
> >Best wishes
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >
> >Bill
> >
> >
> >* * *
> >
> >
> >William Jolley
> >Email: wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >Tel.: 613 9807 5137
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "George Bell" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 10:10 PM
> >Subject: [duxuser] Re: Question about Word and Computer
> >Braille
> >
> >
> > > Hi Bill,
> > >
> > > I'm going to refer both issues to a higher authority (Joe)
> >for
> > > comment, along with your very helpful test file.
> > >
> > > What I can say is that currently 10.5 (not yet released)
> >converts all
> > > Hyperlink Styles in Word, to compinline in DBT, something
> >SWIFT does
> > > at the moment.
> > >
> > > As regards the dot 4,6 underline being present, again I'll
> >have to
> > > have this checked out. It is technically correct. There
> >is an
> > > underline there.
> > >
> > > Quite honestly, many areas of braille like this are
> >beginning to drive
> > > me crazy. For example, in British braille it clearly
> >states that you
> > > should use dot 6 ing as delimiters in e-mail and web
> >addresses. BAUK
> > > say so, so why should I argue? They are the law.
> > >
> > > And yet RNIB as often as not, do not use the indicators,
> >yet use
> > > computer braille. Needless to say half of my clients
> >thinks RNIB are
> > > correct, just because they are RNIB. Having said that,
> >many BAUK
> > > members have said the same.
> > >
> > > But then again, BAUK say one can use Literary code - just
> >so long as
> > > you are consistent.
> > >
> > > And of course BAUK don't make any mention of underlined
> >web and e-mail
> > > addresses.
> > >
> > > As regards Bullets, can I emphasise that these are NOT
> >graphics? They
> > > are actually characters. In your example, the ANSI Hex
> >value is 0xB7,
> > > which translates to Unicode U+2022.
> > >
> > > The $64,000 question is, "When is a character a bullet,
> >and when is a
> > > character a character?". Do we need to complicate DBT
> >with a massive
> > > Unicode Character Table of exceptions?
> > >
> > > In British Braille 4,5,6 then 2,5,6 will represent a
> >bullet, but it
> > > still doesn't get away from the $64,000 question.
> > >
> > > For example, I could use the telephone character as a
> >bullet, but do I
> > > translate it as a bullet or "Telephone"?
> > >
> > > It's a pity Louis Braille didn't start with a 10 or 12 dot
> >code!!
> > > (Smile)
> > >
> > > George Bell
> > > Techno-Vision Systems Ltd
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: William Jolley [mailto:wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > Sent: 15 May 2003 11:47
> > > > To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Cc: William Jolley
> > > >
> > > > Hi George
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your prompt and helpful reply.
> > > >
> > > > Certainly not all of the email addresses and Web
> >references in my
> > > > attachment were in Courier, that was part of my test.
> > > > I also realise that my installed version of Swift is not
> >the latest,
> > > > so now I know that there is an option to do the
> >conversion of these
> > > > things from the default format to Courier. I shall
> >install the new
> > > > version, according to your instructions. later.
> > > >
> > > > I understand about the leading dots 46 when the email
> >address or Web
> > > > reference was not in Courier; but when it was in
> >Courier?
> > > >
> > > > I understand about the circulation delay of my message
> >because of
> > > > the attachment - that's why I sent you a copy of the
> >message
> > > > separately. I agree with the list manager taking care
> >when messages
> > > > with attachments arrive, because sometimes they can
> >indeed be
> > > > hazardous.
> > > >
> > > > Now about the bullets. I agree that DBT cannot happily
> >deal with
> > > > thousands of possibilities, but I would have thought
> >that DBT could
> > > > recognise some graphics that were commonly used. As far
> >as I know I
> > > > am just using the MS-Word default, not some esserteric
> >invention of
> > > > my own. Indeed, the problem would be solved (from my
> >perspective)
> > > > if DBT simply used 99 rather than *99 to indicate an
> >unknown
> > > > character.
> > > >
> > > > Now about comp-in-line and comp-display. In the print
> >document the
> > > > Web reference was on a new line in some instances. In
> >such cases
> > > > for the Braille I would simply want the Braille to start
> >on a new
> > > > line, not with a blank line intervening, and with the
> >computer
> > > > Braille delimiters.
> > > > Perhaps this is a case of writing a specific style
> >myself. A
> > > > problem is that the American computer code was issued in
> >1987, when
> > > > email addresses were scarce outside the academic and
> >research
> > > > communities, and when Web addresses didn't exist
> > > > - unless they were by that time an embryonic figment of
> >the
> > > > imagination of Tim Berners Lee. This is a problem:
> > > > we cannot expect DBT to extend coding barriers, but
> >nonetheless
> > > > email addresses and Web references occur very frequently
> >in
> > > > documents such as papers and reports.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for your help.
> > > >
> > > > With best wishes
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > * * *
> > > > William Jolley
> > > > wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > 613 9807 5137
> > > > * * *
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "George Bell" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 7:52 PM
> > > > Subject: [duxuser] Re: Question about Word and Computer
> >Braille
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi William,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry for the delay in seeing your message being
> >posted.
> > > > Because it
> > > > > had an attachment, one of the moderators (me) had to
> > > > approve it first.
> > > > > I've left it attached as it could be an excellent
> >exercise
> > > > for anyone
> > > > > wanting to do similar.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first observation I have to make is that not all
> >your e-mail
> > > > > addresses were in Courier or Courier New. In fact
> >only 1,
> > > > 3, 5, 7, 9
> > > > > and 10 were Courier New. Since the remainder were
> >simply
> > > > underlined
> > > > > Times New Roman, the appearance of dots 4,6 is
> >correct.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is then the issue of addresses being either
> >in-line or
> > > > > within text, so to speak; or on a line of their own.
> >Hence the
> > > > "compinline"
> > > > > Style is applied to those within text, and the
> >"compdisplay."
> > > > > Style where they are on a line of their own. This is
> >correct
> > > > according to
> > > > > BANA and BAUK.
> > > > >
> > > > > The strange numbering is rather odd. In some cases,
> >it
> > > > appears that
> > > > > some numbers have been emboldened. I'd need to look
> >at the
> > > > Word file
> > > > > in much more detail to establish what the problem is,
> >but
> > > > for example "13"
> > > > > appears to be a bold 1, and a normal 3.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bullet points are a hairy issue, since just about any
> >of 40,000
> > > > > odd characters can be used for a bullet.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is actually being generated in your case here is
> >an o grave
> > > > > character in the ANSI character set, which DBT
> >translates
> > > > to ch in in.
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe this will change in 10.5, though I'm not
> >entirely
> > > > sure how
> > > > > the logic is to be applied. BAUK are making some
> >proposals at the
> > > > > moment, which has put this issue up in the air
> >somewhat.
> > > > >
> > > > > As regards SWIFT, if you have DBT 10.4, you should
> >find a
> > > > file called
> > > > > DBT2.DOT in the c:\duxbury folder. If you copy that
> >file
> > > > to your Word
> > > > > or Office startup folder, you will find the utility in
> >Word
> > > > next time
> > > > > you go into Word. It will be an extra menu item
> >called DBT
> > > > or Duxbury.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this starts to get you back on track, but let me
> >know if you
> > > > > encounter any more problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > George Bell
> > > > > Techno-Vision Systems Ltd
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: William Jolley [mailto:wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > Sent: 15 May 2003 08:18
> > > > > > To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Cc: William Jolley
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello everyone
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is mainly a question for George. Actually,
> >there are two
> > > > > > questions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thursday May 15, George Bell wrote:
> > > > > > If you make the web address Courier, you can then
> >ensure
> > > > that prior
> > > > > > to Import, you make sure that in DBT, under Global,
> >Word
> > > > Importer,
> > > > > > you check "Courier to CBC".
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > If you have SWIFT, there is an option there for
> >dealing with
> > > > > > Hyperlinks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > George, this didn't work for me. I also cannot find
> >reference
> > > > > > to the Swift option.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I made a simple file with Times New Roman as the
> >default font.
> > > > > > I changed the email addresses and Web reference to
> >Courier
> > > > New. I got
> > > > > > computer Braille, but I got a starting dots 46, like
> >an
> > > > italic sign
> > > > > > or underline before the first letter. I didn't
> > > > consistently get the
> > > > > > open and close two-cell signs, depending whether the
> >Word
> > > > document
> > > > > > took a new line. With the Web reference I got a
> >blank
> > > > line before
> > > > > > it and no computer code introduction sign. I did
> >get the
> > > > > > continuation symbol. I'm confused what to do to get
> >the email
> > > > > > addresses and Web references to come out correctly
> >from
> > > > an imported
> > > > > > word file, with a minimum of manual intervention.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Test File I used is attached, if the attachment
> >gets
> > > > through.
> > > > > > There were also some other anomalies with this file,
> >such as the
> > > > > > list. It's also possible that some styles are
> >slightly out of
> > > > > > place. The numbering in the Braille seemed a bit
> >strange.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am using Windows XP-Pro, Word 2000, DBT 10.4 and
> >JFW 4.51.
> > > > > > I'm using the English Australian table - largely
> >British
> > > > contraction
> > > > > > rules with the American computer code. I also
> >tried,
> > > > through Swift,
> > > > > > to use the Standard template with American table.
> >No improvement!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hopefully, there is something simple which I am
> >doing wrongly.
> > > > > > Alternatively, I hope that the treatment of email
> > > > addresses and Web
> > > > > > references in Word can be cleaned up in DBT 10.5.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I want to crack this problem of automating email
> > > > addresses and Web
> > > > > > references. I soon have a document to deal with,
> >one I wrote
> > > > > > myself, that has to go into Braile. It is written
> >with
> > > > styles, so
> > > > > > in theory everything should be okay; but it contains
> > > > almost 200 Web
> > > > > > references, all of which are currently in the
> >default Times New
> > > > > > Roman font as active links. I simply want to avoid
> >manual
> > > > > > intervention on each one, when getting its
> >translation correct
> > > > > > in Braille. Many Web references start on a new line
> >in the
> > > > print, but
> > > > > > I don't want a blank line preceeding them in the
> >Braille.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now I have a second matter to raise. I cannot
> >understand why
> > > > > > DBT does not recognise the commonplace bullets used
> >by word.
> > > > > > Is this because Braille doesn't have the requisite
> >symbols to
> > > > > > represent bullets? Can DBT be made to simply use 99
> > > > rather than *99
> > > > > > to represent bullets?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > all help is appreciated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * * *
> > > > > > William Jolley
> > > > > > wjolley@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > 613 9807 5137
> > > > > > * * *
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "George Bell" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > To: <duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:19 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [duxuser] Re: Question about Word and
> >Computer Braille
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Deb,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you make the web address Courier, you can then
> >ensure
> > > > > > that prior to
> > > > > > > Import, you make sure that in DBT, under Global,
> >Word
> > > > > > > Importer, you check "Courier to CBC".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However be warned. Nothing else in the Word
> >document
> > > > > > should be Courier.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you have SWIFT, there is an option there for
> >dealing
> > > > > > with Hyperlinks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > George.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Deborah Barnes
> > > > > > > > [mailto:dbarnes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > > > Sent: 14 May 2003 19:50
> > > > > > > > To: duxuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi everybody,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Usually I do all my editing from Duxbury but I'm
> >in a
> > > > > > position where
> > > > > > > > I can't access my Duxbury from Word right now so
> >I have
> > > > > > to make my
> > > > > > > > changes in Word.
> > > > > > > > So my question is this:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When I'm in Word can I do something to a
> >hyperlink or Web
> > > > > > address so
> > > > > > > > that when I take the document to Duxbury it will
> > > > > > translate into CBC
> > > > > > > > when it's embossed?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Deb B.
> > > > > > > >
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