Hello Stephan!
Your insight into this dynamic has been something very new for me and so I
looked into this possibility in my own work in international seminars and I
can only confirm this now from my own clinical experience. As you can
imagine this requires quite a leap for beginning practioners with limited
experience with trauma , rape, sexual abuse and the complexities of systemic
dynamics.This is very delicate territory indeed which requires a great deal
of patience, skill and experienced sensitivities...
Warm Regards,
Anngwyn.
In a message dated 2/3/2012 3:54:01 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
stephan.hausner@xxxxxx writes:
Dear all,
my experience in working of victims of sexual abuse is that the rape is
often a shifted incest, means that when you look into the families of
origin of the victims you often find an incestuous dynamic. (the mother
is somehow bonded and drawn out of the system and the daughter gets on
her position). If there is sexual abuse, then its often a shift in the
perpetrator, means instead of the father a rapist for example is getting
on "his place".
In consequence of this there a many aspects: on one side there is the
personal trauma and on the other side there is the aspect related to the
dynamic in the family of origin, means that also regarding rape there is
a responsability to be given back to the parents ...
I wrote about this in my book: "Even if it costs me my life" in the
chapter: Illness and incestuous dynamic, where are a few cases related
to these theme
I hope I could make my point clear
warm regards
Stephan
Am 03.02.2012 22:36, schrieb _anngwyn@aol.com_ (mailto:anngwyn@xxxxxxx) :
<mailto:epillard%40nvbell.net> writes:
Hello Ellen,
Every case is different and yes, rape can impact the system and also for
subsequent generations. SCW offers many options for healing this
within our
systemic understanding of victim/perpetrator dynamics. One of the most
informative sessions on this topic was done by Johannes B. Schmidt in
Hamburg and he writes about this in a article in " Sexual Abuse Studies "
Systemic Solutions Bulletin ,No.2, 2001, p.39. This is also summarized
in my book
A Question of Balance: A Systemic Approach to Understanding and Resolving
Trauma, in the chapter on Victim/Perpetrator Dynamics, pp. 152-154.
John L.
Payne's books also expand the topic to include issues of gender and
gender
identification.
Warm Regards,
Anngwyn
In a message dated 2/3/2012 2:06:51 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
_epillard@nvbell.net_ (mailto:epillard@xxxxxxxxxx)
<mailto:_epillard%40nvbell.net>_
Thank you, Anngwyn, for your information on treating rape trauma. And
thank you, Michael, for your very thoughtful exploration of words and
their
meaning.
When I read the early postings on rape I had an embodied negative
response
to the discussion. As a woman and a trained FC facilitator I processed
these feelings and found useful information in the discussion. But I
am left
with the question "Does rape effect the family soul past, present or
future
and how can you heal that?"
Ellen Pillard MSW
Reno, NV
email: __epillard@nvbell.net_ (mailto:_epillard@xxxxxxxxxx)
(mailto:_epillard@nvbell.net_ ;(mailto:epillard@xxxxxxxxxx)<mailto:epillard%40nvbell.net>)
(mailto:_michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
________________________________
From: Michael Reddy <__michael@reddyworks.com_
<mailto:_michael%40reddyworks.com>_<mailto:michael%40reddyworks.com>) >
(mailto:_michael@reddyworks.com_ ;(mailto:michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
To: "ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com"(mailto:_ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
<__ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.com_
<mailto:_ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>_(mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(mailto:_ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.com_ ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>) ><mailto:_michael%40reddyworks.com>_
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Transcending Forgiveness through
Acceptance by Gary Stuart
Dear Gary, and All,
It is typical of me that, despite admiring, understanding, and
agreeing with your eloquent essay on Forgiveness versus Acceptance--I
remain troubled by what seems to be a discrepancy between ordinary
usage of US English and a somewhat narrower meaning that seems to take
over in constellation work. So first of all, thank you for posting
the essay, and then, here's what comes up for me.
In general, words have a number of senses, or primary meanings. It is
always risky to assume too quickly that we know which one or more are
intended when a person utters a sound or scratches marks on a page.
In particular, the word "forgive" has at least three relevant uses in
the perpetrator-victim context.
FORGIVE1 <to pardon a person for an offense> "I forgive you for
stealing my wallet"
FORGIVE2 <to give up all claim to restitution or repayment> "I
forgave that debt already"
FORGIVE3 <to cease to feel resentment against> "It's generally best
to forgive your enemies"
To my mind, while FORGIVE1 <pardon> falls clearly into the
problematic, self-important stance we constellators speak of, FORGIVE2
slips away from it, and FORGIVE3 <let go resentment> comes very close
to what we mean by "acceptance."
People may say, well, Michael is being too logical and "left-brained"
here. But in fact, the whole re-characterization of "forgiveness" in
terms of systemic hierarchy, self-importance, and doubling of burden
on the victim requires, even though true, quite a bit of "left brain"
work to grasp. Especially for someone used to the various, more
loosely employed meanings normally associated with "forgive."
I guess there are two points here perhaps worth considering. First,
this goes back to earlier discussions here about our community using
common terms somewhat preemptively in ways that are quite contrary to
everyday usage. Do we get in our own way by not showing more respect
for how much the larger language community is likely to be confused by
this? Can we not talk about re-languaging without questions being
raised about understanding and group loyalty?
And second, if a client in a constellation spontaneously says "Oh, I
do forgive you" to a perpetrator, I at least want to be listening as
carefully as I can for which nuance (either FORGIVE1 <pardon> or
FORGIVE3 <let go resentment>, or some combination) is intended.
Because it seems to me there are occasions when this statement
signifies very much the acceptance we wish to foster, and others where
it resonates with the self importance we want to discourage. Maybe
the client means simply, "You know what, I accept that you did this
and am not holding on to it." And even if it's the problematic
FORGIVE1 <pardon> that's intended, I'd still be somewhat careful about
launching into a whole left-brain explanation of the distinction in
the middle of a constellation. Maybe I would--or maybe I'd let it
pass and talk about it later. A lot would depend.
I haven't had time to look into this, but I keep wondering of some of
these confusing usages come from the different senses and nuances
involved with the original German words. In general, from language to
language, word senses and their nuances are not grouped around words
in the same ways at all.
Best,
Michael
Michael Reddy, PhD, CPC, ELI-MP
__michael@reddyworks.com_ (mailto:_michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
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www.reddyworks.com
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