Scott. Very good post.
I think if I am going to fuss with a gui. The mac is probably a compromise for
me. I have used it. And your right you can use unix like stuff under the hood.
But for now that is far out of my price range.
Considering getting a mac mini at some point. But even those are high priced.
As I believe I stated before I can use any GUI pretty much. But I still go back
to CLI all the time. Given the chance.
Your points are well taken though.
Thanks for sharing.
I hope I didn't come off as trashing the GUI. I believe I said some people are
better off in the GUI and some in CLI.
I wish some would learn both though sigh.
Jessica
Original message:
So my history has been blasted all over lists for years so Iâll keep it short
but I do want to comment on the GUI verses CLI thing.
First, in brief, Iâm in my late 40s and have been using computers since about
age 8 or so.:). The very fist computer I ever used was an IBM 4300 mainframe
and the first computer I owned was an Apple 2E that I heavily upgraded.
I worked as a young person to spend the almost 10,000 dollars to get in to a
decent system with features back in the day as well as started really teaching
myself electronics at that stage.
Since, I have owned to many computers to list but more importantly I have
founded two Internet carriers and been involved in network engineering for
going on 30 years now. Some accomplishments include designing and deploying
large parts of the Verizon Wireless network,
deploying the worlds largest out of home IPTV network,
redesigning parts of the Nuclear Weapons command and control network and owning
/ deploying one of the first privately held SONET rings.
My Unix experience includes Linux of various types of course, FreeBSD, Solaris,
SunOS, Ultrix and AIX.
Presently, I manage one of the largest voice and data networks used for call
centers in the US. Iâm spending a lot of time recently building resources and
systems for people to work from home.
In about a two week time period we turned our 8 call centers in to a work from
home environment for our agents that supports over 2000 concurrent users
complete with phones, Remote Desktop and weâre providing phone service via
soft phones and a large carrier class Lucent distributed switching environment.
So I touch a lot of different types of gear.
Now to the meat of the message, CLI verses GUI.
Both have their place, both are important and both are critical for a blind
user to be able to function. We can not afford to simply discount the GUI and
chalk it up to the thing the sited use.
If we are to be effective we need to understand these systems so we can better
collaborate with our coworkers and stake holders.
The CLI is still very much used. Most of the big cloud environments have a CLI
interface as well as web front end. Amazon AWS CLI is a good example of this.
However, the web front end is very accessible and in some ways easier.
While I myself like the CLI and thatâs how I started,
itâs critical to be good at both. Iâve found using a Mac has been my best
platform for work but thatâs so subjective.
One of the things I truly like about the Mac though is the great GUI along with
a great Unix type CLI under the hood.
TO be able to work in both effectively is a real benefit for the old career.
Just my bought take on things, feel free and take or leave what you wish.
Thanks
On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Jessica <jelynnar.lists@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:So I am coming to it from the command line view.
Devin. I just read your blog post.
It seems to me your focused on the GUI. Something I can't simply stand.
the current screen readers stick around.
Excellent post btw. And I understand some of your concerns.
My concern as linux stands right now on top of your concerns is how long will
They don't know how to work in anything else.
This is why I am on the hunt for another. Or possibly making my own.
One thing that is frustrating me about linux in general is everyone is going
GUI.
And for some reason blind people think they have to do everything the sighted
I do understand this as sighted people like graphics.
Thus is why I am posting to the list and not you directly.
Before I continue. I feel this is a very valid subject.
I feel this is quite appropriate.
As Raspbian is linux and raspberry pi tends to work with linux OS's.
But one thing edbrowse has for it is the ability to only bring up the lines you
First. Let me address your email problem. As I said edbrowse is clunky.
The subject, the reference numbers, the reply to address.
Example, an email usually starts with three lines when replying to a message.
So I simply type 4 and press enter.
So I know. Line 4 is where I want to be to begin editing my response.
Once done I type period on a blank line. the dot not the word and press enter.
Since I am inserting text I simply press i and then enter. And type away.
Then I do .= to see what line I am on.Then I type 4,whatever-that-line-number is to review my message before I send
Faster than doing a flick up on my iphone to find more then reply or etc etc.
This may not seem fast to you. But to me it is extremely fast.
I know there are work arounds to get what you want.
I could go on and on. Actually reading email on the iphone is almost annoying
now.
Although quite honestly its much better to me than windows.
I used to be a master of IOS. Not anymore. Others know far more than I do.
IOS is pretty good. But its not the command line.
Now having said that I didn't use one before mac os x or whatever the version
Let me briefly say about the mac. The mac interface has always been confusing
to me.
I felt like I was wading through tons of text to just get what I wanted.
Reading email on the mac was ok to me. But I still didn't like it.
And of course emacs when I got it working that is.
The mutt email client in linux came close to what I wanted.
and properly and as well as I know it can.
I think I really need to do a course on emacspeak to really get it working
But the only thing I ever accomplished with either is just editing files.
I guess you can do tons with vim too.
Edbrowse has simple support for java script web browsing for example.
So what draws me to the command line mode.
First of all. Most things can be done in the command line mode even today.
But its faster because if I know what line the text is on that I want I simply
Sure I have to do a letter type here or there to get what I want.
If I know the line numbers in anything I want to read I simply type the first
As I gave in the example far above.
And I cut my usage time I would say 50 percent or more.
I don't have to leap through tons of text. The info I need comes right up.
And you need to know a website pretty well to accomplish this goal effectively
Of course there always exceptions to that rule.
You type it in and your there. And with edbrowse as a tool in some cases that
1. command line is direct. You don't go through menus/dialogs/etc to get what
you want.
All it takes is a willingness to read manuals/online documentation/etc to get
2. Depending on your typing speed the command line can be quite fast.
I think even apple's recent language has a command line version out there.
3. You can program in almost every programming language using the command
line.
example is already at the command line.
4. GUI's basicly allow one to get at the info that in linux or BSD for
I think its a matter of personal interest/perspective/etc.
5. When it comes right down to it.
Me for example. I am at home in the CLI. Put me in a GUI.
That having been said. I do understand some people do do better with GUI's.
No matter how hard they try. To them they do not understand how the CLI can be
But some people are the same way about CLI. They just can't grasp it.
And its not based on speed. Its based on what I believe would work best for
There are people I would recommend to the CLI and some I would recommend to
the GUI.
you need to make a program/web page/etc so you don't have to type all that out.
Again GUI programming for example brings together basicly the similar content
But it is very powerful. I should be able to delete lines I don't want in less
Back to edbrowse. I don't want to be like those sort of pushing fenrir lol.
the list that I replied too. Only the relevant content like Rich does.
But once I learn that. You won't see all that extra text in emails from me to
of those projects disappear. Why I don't know sigh. Lack of funding?
But edbrowse isn't for everyone like the CLI isn't for everyone.
As for the GUI in linux. I have never been all that impressed as you say most
"You have to be able to program to use the command line."
Also. A misconception about linux command line that I come across a lot is
Teach her a few commands. Give her a braille translated manual in liblouis.
I could set up a raspberry pi for a friend of mine if I wanted too and send
it to her.
Because she is just so used to the GUI.
But I will never get her to use it unless I gave it to her.
I personally believe blind schools should have raspberry PI's as part of their
A lot of it is just misconceptions and misunderstanding of CLI.
I don't think I was too repetative in this email.
Again. It comes down to personal preference.
They aren't given the opportunity to learn.
So they don't know they have a choice.
Lack of choice are the problems why more people aren't using linux.
Lack of knowledge. Lack of experience,
now to see if I can delete these extra lines in a clump like I am supposed to
Way too long of a post. But I hoped it might have helped you some.
and it took only 7 chars to do. Twice because I wasn't paying attention the
Sincerely,
Jessica
PS I did it. I deleted all the unnecessary lines.
attitudes expressed by the subscribers to this list do not reflect those of the
Now if only I could stop edbrowse from automatically saving my list email
rofl.
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