For me, I’m only 25. I started on Windows, and began doing slightly nerdy stuff
like making web pages, basic ones, on the Braille Note MPower in like eighth
grade in school.
Really, my biggest problem with the command line is that one has to do so many
workarounds to get things configured. In a GUI email program, like Apple Mail,
or even Thunderbird on Linux, one can just type in the email address and
password, and the program looks up the configuration for Imap and all that.
Now, I know, EdBrowse, thankfully, has a part in its configuration that deals
with Gmail. That’s great, and I think every program should be just as
user-friendly. But replying to email by saving an email and then editing it?
That’s a workaround that seems clunky. Perhaps ask for a reply function on the
Edbrowse email list, if that’s being run still?
Another thing about the GUI, a good screen reader will allow you to search for
text on the screen, not just in whatever element you’re on. Also, in lists,
like in a file browser, you can begin typing the name of an item, and the focus
will land on that item.
Now, about Raspberry Pi’s. If speech works, out of the box, on Rasbian, then I
will definitely see about installing that on the Pi we have at the training
center for the blind where I work as a Technical Assistant to the Assistive
Technology Instructor. Opinions are my own, like the one I have for the social
media policy. We train on Windows, not because we particularly like Windows,
but because the Linux GUI is inferior in some cases, Microsoft Office is still
an industry standard and Google Docs isn’t as greatly accessible as Office is,
and some things, like Word Processing, I don’t see how that’s possible in the
CLI, let alone accessible.
There are other things that I’d love to be able to do in the CLI, like websites
using HTML5, like Salesforce, and social networking, like Facebook, Twitter,
Mastodon, Matrix, and other modern computing applications. I’m not putting down
the CLI, I certainly hope all this is possible, and if we want students to use
this, easy to do. The largest barrier to CLI usage is not how good it is for
blind people, but how developer/program centric it is. I mean, something like
Emacs is easy to get into, if you don’t use Emacspeak. You type emacs, press
return, and you get a nice startup screen describing it, and even linking to
the tutorial. Alpine, if it is usable with Fenrir or something, is also
probably easy to set up, if you know Gmail’s freaking Imap information. No
email app will autocomplete anything. That’s the biggest problem, these
programs are not designed for regular computer users, especially not made for
blind people, who will be coming from Windows, iPhone, and JAWS, where
everything is helpful, easy, and automated. That doesn’t mean JAWS is perfect,
or even great. I’ve managed to crash JAWS because it tries to be too helpful on
the web and winds up announcing phantom information. Windows is becoming more
accessible thanks to them listening to feedback, but I still can’t run an
updated version of Emacspeak on it. The iPhone is great too, but I can’t
download a video game emulator from the App Store and play a game that I
bought, because piracy is always bad and emulators encourage piracy so
emulators are bad and Apple is god. So, maybe one or two of our inquisitive
computer users would poke at the Pi. But I’m pretty sure that blind students
would not be interested in this. They want to do Facebook, read news, do email
quickly and easily, some may even want to do the audio games forum, and some
may be required to do Google Docs, or learn to use Salesforce. Now, EdBrowse,
or even Links, may be able to do the audio games forum, and news, and yes,
email. I’ll have to see how far I can push Edbrowse. But Google Docs? Facebook?
Even Mastodon? Easy, simple file management? Creating music? Playing more than
Alteraeon or Asteria?
Now, I will grant you that STEM is popping up everywhere, so maybe, if teachers
of the blind can get out of the Quorum phase, Quorum being basically a
programming language for blind children, not used nearly as much as Python,
then maybe some blind students will be interested enough to commit to learning
a whole new way of doing things, and just using Facebook on their phones and
Office apps and audio and video games on a Windows computer, and only touching
their Pi when they feel like they can deal with it. For me, though, I hope
small computers, like the Pi, become even more powerful. I’d love to see
accessible Linux distributions run quickly on the Pi, and I hope that Stormux,
as it is right now, isn’t as fast as a Pi 4 could run. Pi’s could really be a
great way for students, and even old people if Stormux becomes more helpful to
use, to get away from Apple the control freak, and Microsoft and Google the
data vampires.
On Mar 19, 2020, at 8:52 AM, Scott Granados <scott.granados@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
So my history has been blasted all over lists for years so I’ll keep it short
but I do want to comment on the GUI verses CLI thing.
First, in brief, I’m in my late 40s and have been using computers since
about age 8 or so.:). The very fist computer I ever used was an IBM 4300
mainframe and the first computer I owned was an Apple 2E that I heavily
upgraded. I worked as a young person to spend the almost 10,000 dollars to
get in to a decent system with features back in the day as well as started
really teaching myself electronics at that stage.
Since, I have owned to many computers to list but more importantly I
have founded two Internet carriers and been involved in network engineering
for going on 30 years now. Some accomplishments include designing and
deploying large parts of the Verizon Wireless network, deploying the worlds
largest out of home IPTV network, redesigning parts of the Nuclear Weapons
command and control network and owning / deploying one of the first privately
held SONET rings.
My Unix experience includes Linux of various types of course, FreeBSD,
Solaris, SunOS, Ultrix and AIX.
Presently, I manage one of the largest voice and data networks used for
call centers in the US. I’m spending a lot of time recently building
resources and systems for people to work from home. In about a two week time
period we turned our 8 call centers in to a work from home environment for
our agents that supports over 2000 concurrent users complete with phones,
Remote Desktop and we’re providing phone service via soft phones and a large
carrier class Lucent distributed switching environment. So I touch a lot of
different types of gear.
Now to the meat of the message, CLI verses GUI. Both have their place,
both are important and both are critical for a blind user to be able to
function. We can not afford to simply discount the GUI and chalk it up to
the thing the sited use. If we are to be effective we need to understand
these systems so we can better collaborate with our coworkers and stake
holders.
The CLI is still very much used. Most of the big cloud environments
have a CLI interface as well as web front end. Amazon AWS CLI is a good
example of this. However, the web front end is very accessible and in some
ways easier. While I myself like the CLI and that’s how I started, it’s
critical to be good at both. I’ve found using a Mac has been my best
platform for work but that’s so subjective. One of the things I truly like
about the Mac though is the great GUI along with a great Unix type CLI under
the hood. TO be able to work in both effectively is a real benefit for the
old career.
Just my bought take on things, feel free and take or leave what you wish.
Thanks
On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Jessica <jelynnar.lists@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Devin. I just read your blog post.
It seems to me your focused on the GUI. Something I can't simply stand. So I
am coming to it from the command line view.
Excellent post btw. And I understand some of your concerns.
My concern as linux stands right now on top of your concerns is how long
will the current screen readers stick around.
This is why I am on the hunt for another. Or possibly making my own.
One thing that is frustrating me about linux in general is everyone is going
GUI. They don't know how to work in anything else. Even linux distros that
are made for the blind in mind. Their first goal is of course orca with the
gui first. And of course command line secondary.
I do understand this as sighted people like graphics. And for some reason
blind people think they have to do everything the sighted person does.
Otherwise they will be left behind.
Before I continue. I feel this is a very valid subject. Thus is why I am
posting to the list and not you directly.
As Raspbian is linux and raspberry pi tends to work with linux OS's. I feel
this is quite appropriate.
First. Let me address your email problem. As I said edbrowse is clunky. But
one thing edbrowse has for it is the ability to only bring up the lines you
want to see when you want to see them.
Example, an email usually starts with three lines when replying to a
message. The subject, the reference numbers, the reply to address.
So I know. Line 4 is where I want to be to begin editing my response. So I
simply type 4 and press enter.
Since I am inserting text I simply press i and then enter. And type away.
Once done I type period on a blank line. the dot not the word and press
enter.
Then I do .= to see what line I am on. Then I type
4,whatever-that-line-number is to review my message before I send it.
This may not seem fast to you. But to me it is extremely fast. Faster than
doing a flick up on my iphone to find more then reply or etc etc.
I could go on and on. Actually reading email on the iphone is almost
annoying now. I know there are work arounds to get what you want. But
honestly there shouldn't be work arounds. Or their shouldn't have to be.
I used to be a master of IOS. Not anymore. Others know far more than I do.
IOS is pretty good. But its not the command line. Although quite honestly
its much better to me than windows.
Let me briefly say about the mac. The mac interface has always been
confusing to me. Now having said that I didn't use one before mac os x or
whatever the version that came out after 2014 or 2015 came out. So I can't
say whether or not email is what it was back when I used it.
Reading email on the mac was ok to me. But I still didn't like it. I felt
like I was wading through tons of text to just get what I wanted.
The mutt email client in linux came close to what I wanted. And of course
emacs when I got it working that is. But the problem with emacs and
emacspeak is if you don't do things just right it doesn't work and web
browsing I never got that working quite right. And not for lack of trying.
I think I really need to do a course on emacspeak to really get it working
and properly and as well as I know it can.
I guess you can do tons with vim too. But the only thing I ever accomplished
with either is just editing files. And I usually used vim for that purpose
because colon wq was a lot easier to remember than emacs commands at the
time.
So what draws me to the command line mode.
First of all. Most things can be done in the command line mode even today.
Edbrowse has simple support for java script web browsing for example. And
web pages that won't come up in lynx do come up in edbrowse.
Sure I have to do a letter type here or there to get what I want. But its
faster because if I know what line the text is on that I want I simply type
that line number and hit enter and I am there.
As I gave in the example far above. If I know the line numbers in anything I
want to read I simply type the first number followed by a comma and then the
last number and hit enter and it will read only that info to me. No fooling
around trying to get text read etc.
I don't have to leap through tons of text. The info I need comes right up.
And I cut my usage time I would say 50 percent or more. Giving me ultimately
more time to do what I have to do in the day.
Of course there always exceptions to that rule. And you need to know a
website pretty well to accomplish this goal effectively and efficiently. But
it does work. And it does save time.
1. command line is direct. You don't go through menus/dialogs/etc to get
what you want. You type it in and your there. And with edbrowse as a tool in
some cases that makes things easier as well.
2. Depending on your typing speed the command line can be quite fast. All it
takes is a willingness to read manuals/online documentation/etc to get the
proper info you need and once you learn whatever it sticks with you.
3. You can program in almost every programming language using the command
line. I think even apple's recent language has a command line version out
there. I installed it on arch. Something I could never do on the mac. In the
command line it works beautifully. Granted you need to know the code. But
you need to know code anyway if your going to be a great programmer.
4. GUI's basicly allow one to get at the info that in linux or BSD for
example is already at the command line. It mainly is to make it look nicer
and more appealing really. Or for programmers. Quicker (although I don't
understand how). Programming in a GUI of any type slows me down rather than
speeds me up. And personally it doesn't teach you true programming. And most
people taking the GUI approach to programming if viewing actual code they
would be stuck I think.
5. When it comes right down to it. I think its a matter of personal
interest/perspective/etc. For me GUI's have never appealed. The only one
that comes close to me appreciating is IOS. I started with the command line
and quite honestly I will end with the command line most likely. As long as
I can always have access to it.
That having been said. I do understand some people do do better with GUI's.
Me for example. I am at home in the CLI. Put me in a GUI. I can definitely
use it. In most cases. But I will be grumbling all the way. Put me in CLI
sure there are learning curves ETC. But I know given enough time I will
learn it and I will be much happier. And please understand it took me twenty
plus years to finally realize this about myself.
But some people are the same way about CLI. They just can't grasp it. No
matter how hard they try. To them they do not understand how the CLI can be
faster. And I have seen some blind people speed through a GUI like its
nothing. Whereas I would be like really. What are they missing by doing
that. I want every detail. I don't want to skip over text unless like on web
pages etc it should be skipped over. Whereas some people don't mind skipping
over text and they get what they want a lot faster in a GUI than I ever
would.
There are people I would recommend to the CLI and some I would recommend to
the GUI. And its not based on speed. Its based on what I believe would work
best for that person.
Again GUI programming for example brings together basicly the similar
content you need to make a program/web page/etc so you don't have to type
all that out. I get it. I would rather type the stuff out. It helps me learn
things better. And it also lets me test things as I go to get a good
understanding of how things work. Something I personally could never do via
a GUI simplified programming interface.
Back to edbrowse. I don't want to be like those sort of pushing fenrir lol.
But it is very powerful. I should be able to delete lines I don't want in
less time than it would ever take on a gui by simply typing 5 or so
characters and hitting enter. Wham they are gone. Problem is I am still
learning it. So I don't remember those commands and right now I am only
deleting one line at a time.
But once I learn that. You won't see all that extra text in emails from me
to the list that I replied too. Only the relevant content like Rich does.
But edbrowse isn't for everyone like the CLI isn't for everyone.
As for the GUI in linux. I have never been all that impressed as you say
most of those projects disappear. Why I don't know sigh. Lack of funding?
Why fund them. If you want to really produce something for the blind don't
do it for funding. Do it just because. It will stay around a lot longer. And
people will maybe be interested in it more.
Also. A misconception about linux command line that I come across a lot is
"You have to be able to program to use the command line."
I could set up a raspberry pi for a friend of mine if I wanted too and send
it to her. Teach her a few commands. Give her a braille translated manual in
liblouis. And I could set this up in a half hour or less. And she wouldn't
have to learn much of anything except a few commands. And quite honestly her
word processing problem would be solved for the most part. Her email would
be faster to read. ETC etc.
But I will never get her to use it unless I gave it to her. Because she is
just so used to the GUI. But I am sure once she learned it she would use it
and not use GUI but for a few things.
A lot of it is just misconceptions and misunderstanding of CLI.
I don't think I was too repetative in this email.
Again. It comes down to personal preference. I personally believe blind
schools should have raspberry PI's as part of their computer lab. I wish I
had the money to provide them. I would also give basic training on how to
use them set them up etc. Because I don't think most people know about linux
and those who do are only because they run into people like you and I. you
referring to anyone on this list.
So they don't know they have a choice. They aren't given the opportunity to
learn. They aren't aware that at least up to maybe five ten years ago most
businesses computer systems (big places) got managed from the command line.
I don't know how it is today. But I am guessing there are tons of businesses
using BSD or linux to maintain their machine. Debian has a list. I don't
know if BSD does or not. And those are only the listed ones. I am guessing
there are many businesses/organizations using linux as their computer
systems that need to still be managed via command line. Opening a ton of
possible doors to blind people especially. If your trained right and can use
the CLI. Even with just brltty. You have a possible unlimitless number of
job opportunities. And I am guessing but some of which you could manage from
your own house. Although they might not want that for security purposes.
Lack of knowledge. Lack of experience, Lack of choice are the problems why
more people aren't using linux. That is really what it comes down too.
Whether you promote GUI or CLI.
Way too long of a post. But I hoped it might have helped you some. now to
see if I can delete these extra lines in a clump like I am supposed to be
able to do LOL.
Sincerely,
Jessica
PS I did it. I deleted all the unnecessary lines. and it took only 7 chars
to do. Twice because I wasn't paying attention the first time. Now I can
keep my messages clean!. Yay!
Now if only I could stop edbrowse from automatically saving my list email
rofl.
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This list is not affiliated to the Raspberry Pi Foundation and the views and
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the Foundation.
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