Devin. Yes I said edbrowse was clunky *smiles*
But for me its a clunkyness I like. But lol that is just me.
I really liked your response. You have a lot of knowledge for your age and I
think your right for the most part.
I just say this one thing. Edbrowse can do a ton. So play with it. And see what
you can do.
I just opened a page in edbrowse that lynx refused to open for some odd reason
and was able to navigate it quite easily.
I actually enjoyed reading the page. But more on all that later *LOL*.
As for twitter. I believe there is a command line twitter client. A couple of
them. But yeah configuration in linux especially in the command line can be
crazy.
Its one reason I haven't mastered emacs/emacspeak.
Edbrowse can search like any screen reader out there. I am guessing even
better. Although I have not played with that feature of it yet.
There are also things I am still learning about edbrowse. And BTW. edbrowse was
made for the blind. But many sighted people like it for web browsing etc. Or at
least that is what the web site says.
I may subscribe to the email list if its still active. Sadly some of these
email lists have disappeared. I don't think the emacspeak list is around
anymore for example.
If it is. I don't know where to find it. So you are on your own for the most
part. And yeah the configuration. I understand.
I guess the only bone I have to pick with you on the subject of configuration.
I feel like its a lost art.
I feel we should not have so much automation. I feel like its dumming down
people and I just don't feel as a whole automation is a good thing.
But hey.
As for raspbian talking.
I will share in another email how I did that exactly. Granted. I still have the
crazy silence delay issue. Which I don't think piespeakup will solve as that
was made for another problem.
But anyway. Another email.
It has been a day rofl.
Jessica
Original Message:
For me, Iâm only 25. I started on Windows,
and began doing slightly nerdy stuff like making web pages, basic ones,
on the Braille Note MPower in like eighth grade in school.
Really, my biggest problem with the command line is that one has to do so many
workarounds to get things configured.
In a GUI email program, like Apple Mail, or even Thunderbird on Linux,
one can just type in the email address and password,
and the program looks up the configuration for Imap and all that.
Now, I know, EdBrowse, thankfully, has a part in its configuration that deals
with Gmail.
Thatâs great, and I think every program should be just as user-friendly.
But replying to email by saving an email and then editing it?
Thatâs a workaround that seems clunky.
Perhaps ask for a reply function on the Edbrowse email list,
if thatâs being run still?
Another thing about the GUI, a good screen reader will allow you to search for
text on the screen, not just in whatever element youâre on.
Also, in lists, like in a file browser,
you can begin typing the name of an item, and the focus will land on that item.
Now, about Raspberry Piâs. If speech works, out of the box, on Rasbian,
then I will definitely see about installing that on the Pi we have at the
training center for the blind where I work as a Technical Assistant to the
Assistive Technology Instructor. Opinions are my own,
like the one I have for the social media policy.
We train on Windows, not because we particularly like Windows,
but because the Linux GUI is inferior in some cases,
Microsoft Office is still an industry standard and Google Docs isnât as
greatly accessible as Office is, and some things, like Word Processing,
I donât see how thatâs possible in the CLI, let alone accessible.
There are other things that Iâd love to be able to do in the CLI,
like websites using HTML5, like Salesforce, and social networking,
like Facebook, Twitter, Mastodon, Matrix,
and other modern computing applications.
Iâm not putting down the CLI, I certainly hope all this is possible,
and if we want students to use this, easy to do.
The largest barrier to CLI usage is not how good it is for blind people,
but how developer/program centric it is.
I mean, something like Emacs is easy to get into, if you donât use Emacspeak.
You type emacs, press return, and you get a nice startup screen describing it,
and even linking to the tutorial. Alpine,
if it is usable with Fenrir or something, is also probably easy to set up,
if you know Gmailâs freaking Imap information.
No email app will autocomplete anything.
Thatâs the biggest problem, these programs are not designed for regular
computer users, especially not made for blind people,
who will be coming from Windows, iPhone, and JAWS, w
here everything is helpful, easy, and automated.
That doesnât mean JAWS is perfect, or even great.
Iâve managed to crash JAWS because it tries to be too helpful on the web and
winds up announcing phantom information.
Windows is becoming more accessible thanks to them listening to feedback,
but I still canât run an updated version of Emacspeak on it.
The iPhone is great too, but I canât download a video game emulator from the
App Store and play a game that I bought,
because piracy is always bad and emulators encourage piracy so emulators are
bad and Apple is god. So, maybe one or two of our inquisitive computer users
would poke at the Pi. But Iâm pretty sure that blind students would not be
interested in this. They want to do Facebook, read news,
do email quickly and easily, some may even want to do the audio games forum,
and some may be required to do Google Docs, or learn to use Salesforce.
Now, EdBrowse, or even Links, may be able to do the audio games forum, and
news, a
nd yes, email. Iâll have to see how far I can push Edbrowse. But Google Docs?
Facebook? Even Mastodon? Easy, simple file management? Creating music?
Playing more than Alteraeon or Asteria?
Now, I will grant you that STEM is popping up everywhere, so maybe,
if teachers of the blind can get out of the Quorum phase,
Quorum being basically a programming language for blind children,
not used nearly as much as Python, then maybe some blind students will be
interested enough to commit to learning a whole new way of doing things,
and just using Facebook on their phones and Office apps and audio and video
games on a Windows computer, and only touching their Pi when they feel like
they can deal with it. For me, though, I hope small computers, like the Pi,
become even more powerful. Iâd love to see accessible Linux distributions run
quickly on the Pi, and I hope that Stormux, as it is right now,
isnât as fast as a Pi 4 could run.
Piâs could really be a great way for students,
and even old people if Stormux becomes more helpful to use,
to get away from Apple the control freak,
and Microsoft and Google the data vampires.
On Mar 19, 2020, at 8:52 AM, Scott Granados <scott.granados@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:short but I do want to comment on the GUI verses CLI thing.
So my history has been blasted all over lists for years so Iâll keep it
First, in brief, Iâm in my late 40s and have been using computers sinceabout age 8 or so.:). The very fist computer I ever used was an IBM 4300
Since, I have owned to many computers to list but more importantly I havefounded two Internet carriers and been involved in network engineering for
My Unix experience includes Linux of various types of course, FreeBSD,Solaris, SunOS, Ultrix and AIX.
Presently, I manage one of the largest voice and data networks used for callcenters in the US. Iâm spending a lot of time recently building resources and
Now to the meat of the message, CLI verses GUI.Both have their place, both are important and both are critical for a blind
The CLI is still very much used. Most of the big cloud environments have aCLI interface as well as web front end.
So I am coming to it from the command line view.
Just my bought take on things, feel free and take or leave what you wish.
Thanks
On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Jessica <jelynnar.lists@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Devin. I just read your blog post.
It seems to me your focused on the GUI. Something I can't simply stand.
will the current screen readers stick around.
Excellent post btw. And I understand some of your concerns.
My concern as linux stands right now on top of your concerns is how long
They don't know how to work in anything else.
This is why I am on the hunt for another. Or possibly making my own.
One thing that is frustrating me about linux in general is everyone is going
GUI.
And for some reason blind people think they have to do everything the sighted
I do understand this as sighted people like graphics.
Thus is why I am posting to the list and not you directly.
Before I continue. I feel this is a very valid subject.
I feel this is quite appropriate.
As Raspbian is linux and raspberry pi tends to work with linux OS's.
But one thing edbrowse has for it is the ability to only bring up the lines you
First. Let me address your email problem. As I said edbrowse is clunky.
The subject, the reference numbers, the reply to address.
Example, an email usually starts with three lines when replying to a message.
So I simply type 4 and press enter.
So I know. Line 4 is where I want to be to begin editing my response.
Once done I type period on a blank line. the dot not the word and press enter.
Since I am inserting text I simply press i and then enter. And type away.
Then I type 4,whatever-that-line-number is to review my message before I sendThen I do .= to see what line I am on.
Faster than doing a flick up on my iphone to find more then reply or etc etc.
This may not seem fast to you. But to me it is extremely fast.
I know there are work arounds to get what you want.
I could go on and on. Actually reading email on the iphone is almost
annoying now.
Although quite honestly its much better to me than windows.
I used to be a master of IOS. Not anymore. Others know far more than I do.
IOS is pretty good. But its not the command line.
The mac interface has always been confusing to me.
Let me briefly say about the mac.
I felt like I was wading through tons of text to just get what I wanted.
Reading email on the mac was ok to me. But I still didn't like it.
And of course emacs when I got it working that is.
The mutt email client in linux came close to what I wanted.
and properly and as well as I know it can.
I think I really need to do a course on emacspeak to really get it working
But the only thing I ever accomplished with either is just editing files.
I guess you can do tons with vim too.
Edbrowse has simple support for java script web browsing for example.
So what draws me to the command line mode.
First of all. Most things can be done in the command line mode even today.
But its faster because if I know what line the text is on that I want I simply
Sure I have to do a letter type here or there to get what I want.
If I know the line numbers in anything I want to read I simply type the first
As I gave in the example far above.
And I cut my usage time I would say 50 percent or more.
I don't have to leap through tons of text. The info I need comes right up.
And you need to know a website pretty well to accomplish this goal effectively
Of course there always exceptions to that rule.
You type it in and your there. And with edbrowse as a tool in some cases that
1. command line is direct. You don't go through menus/dialogs/etc to get
what you want.
All it takes is a willingness to read manuals/online documentation/etc to get
2. Depending on your typing speed the command line can be quite fast.
I think even apple's recent language has a command line version out there.
3. You can program in almost every programming language using the command
line.
example is already at the command line.
4. GUI's basicly allow one to get at the info that in linux or BSD for
I think its a matter of personal interest/perspective/etc.
5. When it comes right down to it.
Me for example. I am at home in the CLI. Put me in a GUI.
That having been said. I do understand some people do do better with GUI's.
No matter how hard they try. To them they do not understand how the CLI can be
But some people are the same way about CLI. They just can't grasp it.
And its not based on speed. Its based on what I believe would work best for
There are people I would recommend to the CLI and some I would recommend to
the GUI.
content you need to make a program/web page/etc so you don't have to type all
Again GUI programming for example brings together basicly the similar
But it is very powerful. I should be able to delete lines I don't want in less
Back to edbrowse. I don't want to be like those sort of pushing fenrir lol.
to the list that I replied too. Only the relevant content like Rich does.
But once I learn that. You won't see all that extra text in emails from me
most of those projects disappear. Why I don't know sigh. Lack of funding?
But edbrowse isn't for everyone like the CLI isn't for everyone.
As for the GUI in linux. I have never been all that impressed as you say
"You have to be able to program to use the command line."
Also. A misconception about linux command line that I come across a lot is
Teach her a few commands. Give her a braille translated manual in liblouis.
I could set up a raspberry pi for a friend of mine if I wanted too and send
it to her.
Because she is just so used to the GUI.
But I will never get her to use it unless I gave it to her.
I personally believe blind schools should have raspberry PI's as part of their
A lot of it is just misconceptions and misunderstanding of CLI.
I don't think I was too repetative in this email.
Again. It comes down to personal preference.
They aren't given the opportunity to learn.
So they don't know they have a choice.
Lack of choice are the problems why more people aren't using linux.
Lack of knowledge. Lack of experience,
now to see if I can delete these extra lines in a clump like I am supposed to
Way too long of a post. But I hoped it might have helped you some.
and it took only 7 chars to do. Twice because I wasn't paying attention the
Sincerely,
Jessica
PS I did it. I deleted all the unnecessary lines.
attitudes expressed by the subscribers to this list do not reflect those of the
Now if only I could stop edbrowse from automatically saving my list email
rofl.
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Raspberry Pi and the Raspberry Pi logo are trademarks of the Raspberry Pi
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This list is not affiliated to the Raspberry Pi Foundation and the views and
Mike Ray, list creator, January 2013