I've just read some of this stuff about config.
I really can't recommend Ansible strongly enough.
The way Ansible roles, tasks and plays/playbooks are written is with
simple YAML files.
And then Ansible itself is written in Python.
Take a look at:
https://github.com/cromarty/ansible-raspberry-pi
One of the great things about Ansible, is it can be used to remotely
configure one or more machines, and the machines could either be sitting
on the same desk, or separated by half of the world's circumference.
Somebody in Australia or anywhere else could open up a port to someone
here, like me for example, and I could run Ansible playbooks against a
thousand Raspberry Pis running there.
If you are concerned about automating configuration then learn Ansible.
One of my rules is, and always has been, if I need to issue a complex
command more than three times at the command line, make it a script.
And the same goes for machine configuration.
Automate it.
Mike
On 19/03/2020 20:59, Devin Prater wrote:
Okay, about picking bones, I’d rather have meat to chew on; bones are for
dogs. 😀
Now, about configuration being a lost art, I think it’s more about the amount
of time I’d have to spend on working with a text file that cannot change
during configuration, rather than a GUI which can. Consider email clients.
Whenever I enter info about my account, email and password, the email program
fetches the right server info. Pure config files, to my knowledge, cannot do
that. Now, one can fill out email and password on the command line, and the
program can fetch it just as well and put that in config, but of course no
email client for supposedly “real” computer users would ever insult the
intelligence of those who use the CLI by actually doing something to save
time. To me, computers are great at saving us time. We should, wether we use
the CLI or GUI, be able to tell our computers if we want help, or not. This
is also what is so great about operating system setup scripts. It allows a
person who wants to spend the time needed on configuring the clock, setting
up the h
ost name file, setting up user groups, and downloading and configuring
packages to do so, hopefully with Fenrir since Speakup crashes with Speakup
and all that. But for others, a setup file can do all that, give the user
options on what disk the distro should be installed, then after installation
allow the user to set up accessibility stuff. Configuration can be great on
the CLI, and in config files, but only if the user has either the time or the
information needed, or both, or good, helpful automation, which is optional.
On Mar 19, 2020, at 3:34 PM, Jessica <jelynnar.lists@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Devin. Yes I said edbrowse was clunky *smiles*
But for me its a clunkyness I like. But lol that is just me.
I really liked your response. You have a lot of knowledge for your age and I
think your right for the most part.
I just say this one thing. Edbrowse can do a ton. So play with it. And see
what you can do.
I just opened a page in edbrowse that lynx refused to open for some odd
reason and was able to navigate it quite easily.
I actually enjoyed reading the page. But more on all that later *LOL*.
As for twitter. I believe there is a command line twitter client. A couple
of them. But yeah configuration in linux especially in the command line can
be crazy.
Its one reason I haven't mastered emacs/emacspeak.
Edbrowse can search like any screen reader out there. I am guessing even
better. Although I have not played with that feature of it yet.
There are also things I am still learning about edbrowse. And BTW. edbrowse
was made for the blind. But many sighted people like it for web browsing
etc. Or at least that is what the web site says.
I may subscribe to the email list if its still active. Sadly some of these
email lists have disappeared. I don't think the emacspeak list is around
anymore for example.
If it is. I don't know where to find it. So you are on your own for the most
part. And yeah the configuration. I understand.
I guess the only bone I have to pick with you on the subject of
configuration. I feel like its a lost art.
I feel we should not have so much automation. I feel like its dumming down
people and I just don't feel as a whole automation is a good thing.
But hey.
As for raspbian talking.
I will share in another email how I did that exactly. Granted. I still have
the crazy silence delay issue. Which I don't think piespeakup will solve as
that was made for another problem.
But anyway. Another email.
It has been a day rofl.
Jessica
Original Message:
For me, I’m only 25. I started on Windows,
and began doing slightly nerdy stuff like making web pages, basic ones,
on the Braille Note MPower in like eighth grade in school.
Really, my biggest problem with the command line is that one has to do so
many
workarounds to get things configured.
In a GUI email program, like Apple Mail, or even Thunderbird on Linux,
one can just type in the email address and password,
and the program looks up the configuration for Imap and all that.
Now, I know, EdBrowse, thankfully, has a part in its configuration that
deals with Gmail.
That’s great, and I think every program should be just as user-friendly.
But replying to email by saving an email and then editing it?
That’s a workaround that seems clunky.
Perhaps ask for a reply function on the Edbrowse email list,
if that’s being run still?
Another thing about the GUI, a good screen reader will allow you to search
for
text on the screen, not just in whatever element you’re on.
Also, in lists, like in a file browser,
you can begin typing the name of an item, and the focus will land on that
item.
Now, about Raspberry Pi’s. If speech works, out of the box, on Rasbian,
then I will definitely see about installing that on the Pi we have at the
training center for the blind where I work as a Technical Assistant to the
Assistive Technology Instructor. Opinions are my own,
like the one I have for the social media policy.
We train on Windows, not because we particularly like Windows,
but because the Linux GUI is inferior in some cases,
Microsoft Office is still an industry standard and Google Docs isn’t as
greatly accessible as Office is, and some things, like Word Processing,
I don’t see how that’s possible in the CLI, let alone accessible.
There are other things that I’d love to be able to do in the CLI,
like websites using HTML5, like Salesforce, and social networking,
like Facebook, Twitter, Mastodon, Matrix,
and other modern computing applications.
I’m not putting down the CLI, I certainly hope all this is possible,
and if we want students to use this, easy to do.
The largest barrier to CLI usage is not how good it is for blind people,
but how developer/program centric it is.
I mean, something like Emacs is easy to get into, if you don’t use Emacspeak.
You type emacs, press return, and you get a nice startup screen describing
it,
and even linking to the tutorial. Alpine,
if it is usable with Fenrir or something, is also probably easy to set up,
if you know Gmail’s freaking Imap information.
No email app will autocomplete anything.
That’s the biggest problem, these programs are not designed for regular
computer users, especially not made for blind people,
who will be coming from Windows, iPhone, and JAWS, w
here everything is helpful, easy, and automated.
That doesn’t mean JAWS is perfect, or even great.
I’ve managed to crash JAWS because it tries to be too helpful on the web and
winds up announcing phantom information.
Windows is becoming more accessible thanks to them listening to feedback,
but I still can’t run an updated version of Emacspeak on it.
The iPhone is great too, but I can’t download a video game emulator from the
App Store and play a game that I bought,
because piracy is always bad and emulators encourage piracy so emulators are
bad and Apple is god. So, maybe one or two of our inquisitive computer users
would poke at the Pi. But I’m pretty sure that blind students would not be
interested in this. They want to do Facebook, read news,
do email quickly and easily, some may even want to do the audio games forum,
and some may be required to do Google Docs, or learn to use Salesforce.
Now, EdBrowse, or even Links, may be able to do the audio games forum, and
news, a
nd yes, email. I’ll have to see how far I can push Edbrowse. But Google Docs?
Facebook? Even Mastodon? Easy, simple file management? Creating music?
Playing more than Alteraeon or Asteria?
Now, I will grant you that STEM is popping up everywhere, so maybe,
if teachers of the blind can get out of the Quorum phase,
Quorum being basically a programming language for blind children,
not used nearly as much as Python, then maybe some blind students will be
interested enough to commit to learning a whole new way of doing things,
and just using Facebook on their phones and Office apps and audio and video
games on a Windows computer, and only touching their Pi when they feel like
they can deal with it. For me, though, I hope small computers, like the Pi,
become even more powerful. I’d love to see accessible Linux distributions run
quickly on the Pi, and I hope that Stormux, as it is right now,
isn’t as fast as a Pi 4 could run.
Pi’s could really be a great way for students,
and even old people if Stormux becomes more helpful to use,
to get away from Apple the control freak,
and Microsoft and Google the data vampires.
On Mar 19, 2020, at 8:52 AM, Scott Granados <scott.granados@xxxxxxxxx>short but I do want to comment on the GUI verses CLI thing.
wrote:
So my history has been blasted all over lists for years so I’ll keep it
First, in brief, I’m in my late 40s and have been using computers sinceabout age 8 or so.:). The very fist computer I ever used was an IBM 4300
mainframe and the first computer I owned was an Apple 2E that I heavily
upgraded.
I worked as a young person to spend the almost 10,000 dollars to get in to a
decent system with features back in the day as well as started really
teaching
myself electronics at that stage.
Since, I have owned to many computers to list but more importantly I havefounded two Internet carriers and been involved in network engineering for
going on 30 years now. Some accomplishments include designing and deploying
large parts of the Verizon Wireless network,
deploying the worlds largest out of home IPTV network,
redesigning parts of the Nuclear Weapons command and control network and
owning
/ deploying one of the first privately held SONET rings.
My Unix experience includes Linux of various types of course, FreeBSD,Solaris, SunOS, Ultrix and AIX.
Presently, I manage one of the largest voice and data networks used for callcenters in the US. I’m spending a lot of time recently building resources and
systems for people to work from home.
In about a two week time period we turned our 8 call centers in to a work
from
home environment for our agents that supports over 2000 concurrent users
complete with phones, Remote Desktop and we’re providing phone service via
soft phones and a large carrier class Lucent distributed switching
environment.
So I touch a lot of different types of gear.
Now to the meat of the message, CLI verses GUI.Both have their place, both are important and both are critical for a blind
user to be able to function. We can not afford to simply discount the GUI and
chalk it up to the thing the sited use.
If we are to be effective we need to understand these systems so we can
better
collaborate with our coworkers and stake holders.
The CLI is still very much used. Most of the big cloud environments have aCLI interface as well as web front end.
Amazon AWS CLI is a good example of this.
However, the web front end is very accessible and in some ways easier.
While I myself like the CLI and that’s how I started,
it’s critical to be good at both. I’ve found using a Mac has been my best
platform for work but that’s so subjective.
One of the things I truly like about the Mac though is the great GUI along
with
a great Unix type CLI under the hood.
TO be able to work in both effectively is a real benefit for the old career.
So I am coming to it from the command line view.
Just my bought take on things, feel free and take or leave what you wish.
Thanks
On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Jessica <jelynnar.lists@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Devin. I just read your blog post.
It seems to me your focused on the GUI. Something I can't simply stand.
will the current screen readers stick around.
Excellent post btw. And I understand some of your concerns.
My concern as linux stands right now on top of your concerns is how long
They don't know how to work in anything else.
This is why I am on the hunt for another. Or possibly making my own.
One thing that is frustrating me about linux in general is everyone is
going GUI.
Even linux distros that are made for the blind in mind.
Their first goal is of course orca with the gui first.
And of course command line secondary.
And for some reason blind people think they have to do everything the
I do understand this as sighted people like graphics.
sighted person does.
Otherwise they will be left behind.
Thus is why I am posting to the list and not you directly.
Before I continue. I feel this is a very valid subject.
I feel this is quite appropriate.
As Raspbian is linux and raspberry pi tends to work with linux OS's.
But one thing edbrowse has for it is the ability to only bring up the lines
First. Let me address your email problem. As I said edbrowse is clunky.
you
want to see when you want to see them.
The subject, the reference numbers, the reply to address.
Example, an email usually starts with three lines when replying to a
message.
So I simply type 4 and press enter.
So I know. Line 4 is where I want to be to begin editing my response.
Once done I type period on a blank line. the dot not the word and press
Since I am inserting text I simply press i and then enter. And type away.
enter.
Then I type 4,whatever-that-line-number is to review my message before IThen I do .= to see what line I am on.
send it.
Faster than doing a flick up on my iphone to find more then reply or etc etc.
This may not seem fast to you. But to me it is extremely fast.
I know there are work arounds to get what you want.
I could go on and on. Actually reading email on the iphone is almost
annoying now.
But honestly there shouldn't be work arounds. Or their shouldn't have to be.
Although quite honestly its much better to me than windows.
I used to be a master of IOS. Not anymore. Others know far more than I do.
IOS is pretty good. But its not the command line.
The mac interface has always been confusing to me.
Let me briefly say about the mac.
Now having said that I didn't use one before mac os x or whatever the version
that came out after 2014 or 2015 came out.
So I can't say whether or not email is what it was back when I used it.
I felt like I was wading through tons of text to just get what I wanted.
Reading email on the mac was ok to me. But I still didn't like it.
And of course emacs when I got it working that is.
The mutt email client in linux came close to what I wanted.
But the problem with emacs and emacspeak is if you don't do things just right
it doesn't work and web browsing I never got that working quite right.
And not for lack of trying.
and properly and as well as I know it can.
I think I really need to do a course on emacspeak to really get it working
But the only thing I ever accomplished with either is just editing files.
I guess you can do tons with vim too.
And I usually used vim for that purpose because colon wq was a lot easier to
remember than emacs commands at the time.
Edbrowse has simple support for java script web browsing for example.
So what draws me to the command line mode.
First of all. Most things can be done in the command line mode even today.
And web pages that won't come up in lynx do come up in edbrowse.
But its faster because if I know what line the text is on that I want I
Sure I have to do a letter type here or there to get what I want.
simply
type that line number and hit enter and I am there.
If I know the line numbers in anything I want to read I simply type the first
As I gave in the example far above.
number followed by a comma and then the last number and hit enter and it will
read only that info to me. No fooling around trying to get text read etc.
And I cut my usage time I would say 50 percent or more.
I don't have to leap through tons of text. The info I need comes right up.
Giving me ultimately more time to do what I have to do in the day.
And you need to know a website pretty well to accomplish this goal
Of course there always exceptions to that rule.
effectively
and efficiently. But it does work. And it does save time.
You type it in and your there. And with edbrowse as a tool in some cases that
1. command line is direct. You don't go through menus/dialogs/etc to get
what you want.
makes things easier as well.
All it takes is a willingness to read manuals/online documentation/etc to get
2. Depending on your typing speed the command line can be quite fast.
the proper info you need and once you learn whatever it sticks with you.
I think even apple's recent language has a command line version out there.
3. You can program in almost every programming language using the command
line.
I installed it on arch. Something I could never do on the mac.
In the command line it works beautifully. Granted you need to know the code.
But you need to know code anyway if your going to be a great programmer.
example is already at the command line.
4. GUI's basicly allow one to get at the info that in linux or BSD for
It mainly is to make it look nicer and more appealing really.
Or for programmers. Quicker (although I don't understand how).
Programming in a GUI of any type slows me down rather than speeds me up.
And personally it doesn't teach you true programming.
And most people taking the GUI approach to programming if viewing actual code
they would be stuck I think.
I think its a matter of personal interest/perspective/etc.
5. When it comes right down to it.
For me GUI's have never appealed. The only one that comes close to me
appreciating is IOS. I started with the command line and quite honestly I
will
end with the command line most likely.
As long as I can always have access to it.
Me for example. I am at home in the CLI. Put me in a GUI.
That having been said. I do understand some people do do better with GUI's.
I can definitely use it. In most cases. But I will be grumbling all the way.
Put me in CLI sure there are learning curves ETC.
But I know given enough time I will learn it and I will be much happier.
And please understand it took me twenty plus years to finally realize this
about myself.
No matter how hard they try. To them they do not understand how the CLI can
But some people are the same way about CLI. They just can't grasp it.
be faster.
And I have seen some blind people speed through a GUI like its nothing.
Whereas I would be like really. What are they missing by doing that.
I want every detail. I don't want to skip over text unless like on web pages
etc it should be skipped over. Whereas some people don't mind skipping over
text and they get what they want a lot faster in a GUI than I ever would.
And its not based on speed. Its based on what I believe would work best for
There are people I would recommend to the CLI and some I would recommend
to the GUI.
that person.
content you need to make a program/web page/etc so you don't have to type
Again GUI programming for example brings together basicly the similar
all that out.
I get it. I would rather type the stuff out. It helps me learn things better.
And it also lets me test things as I go to get a good understanding of how
things work.
Something I personally could never do via a GUI simplified programming
interface.
But it is very powerful. I should be able to delete lines I don't want in
Back to edbrowse. I don't want to be like those sort of pushing fenrir lol.
less
time than it would ever take on a gui by simply typing 5 or so characters
and hitting enter.
Wham they are gone. Problem is I am still learning it.
So I don't remember those commands and right now I am only deleting one line
at a time.
to the list that I replied too. Only the relevant content like Rich does.
But once I learn that. You won't see all that extra text in emails from me
most of those projects disappear. Why I don't know sigh. Lack of funding?
But edbrowse isn't for everyone like the CLI isn't for everyone.
As for the GUI in linux. I have never been all that impressed as you say
Why fund them. If you want to really produce something for the blind don't do
it for funding. Do it just because. It will stay around a lot longer.
And people will maybe be interested in it more.
"You have to be able to program to use the command line."
Also. A misconception about linux command line that I come across a lot is
Teach her a few commands. Give her a braille translated manual in liblouis.
I could set up a raspberry pi for a friend of mine if I wanted too and
send it to her.
And I could set this up in a half hour or less.
And she wouldn't have to learn much of anything except a few commands.
And quite honestly her word processing problem would be solved for the most
part.
Her email would be faster to read. ETC etc.
Because she is just so used to the GUI.
But I will never get her to use it unless I gave it to her.
But I am sure once she learned it she would use it and not use GUI but for a
few things.
I personally believe blind schools should have raspberry PI's as part of
A lot of it is just misconceptions and misunderstanding of CLI.
I don't think I was too repetative in this email.
Again. It comes down to personal preference.
their computer lab.
I wish I had the money to provide them.
I would also give basic training on how to use them set them up etc.
Because I don't think most people know about linux and those who do are only
because they run into people like you and I. you referring to anyone on this
list.
They aren't given the opportunity to learn.
So they don't know they have a choice.
They aren't aware that at least up to maybe five ten years ago most
businesses
computer systems (big places) got managed from the command line.
I don't know how it is today. But I am guessing there are tons of businesses
using BSD or linux to maintain their machine. Debian has a list.
I don't know if BSD does or not. And those are only the listed ones.
I am guessing there are many businesses/organizations using linux as their
computer systems that need to still be managed via command line.
Opening a ton of possible doors to blind people especially.
If your trained right and can use the CLI. Even with just brltty.
You have a possible unlimitless number of job opportunities.
And I am guessing but some of which you could manage from your own house.
Although they might not want that for security purposes.
Lack of choice are the problems why more people aren't using linux.
Lack of knowledge. Lack of experience,
That is really what it comes down too. Whether you promote GUI or CLI.
now to see if I can delete these extra lines in a clump like I am supposed to
Way too long of a post. But I hoped it might have helped you some.
be able to do LOL.
and it took only 7 chars to do. Twice because I wasn't paying attention the
Sincerely,
Jessica
PS I did it. I deleted all the unnecessary lines.
first time.
Now I can keep my messages clean!. Yay!
attitudes expressed by the subscribers to this list do not reflect those of
Now if only I could stop edbrowse from automatically saving my list email
rofl.
===========================================================
The raspberry-vi mailing list
Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/raspberry-vi
Administrative contact: <mike.ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Raspberry Pi and the Raspberry Pi logo are trademarks of the Raspberry Pi
Foundation.
This list is not affiliated to the Raspberry Pi Foundation and the views
and
the Foundation.
attitudes expressed by the subscribers to this list do not reflect those of
Mike Ray, list creator, January 2013
===========================================================
The raspberry-vi mailing list
Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/raspberry-vi
Administrative contact: <mike.ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Raspberry Pi and the Raspberry Pi logo are trademarks of the Raspberry Pi
Foundation.
This list is not affiliated to the Raspberry Pi Foundation and the views and
the Foundation.
Mike Ray, list creator, January 2013
===========================================================
The raspberry-vi mailing list
Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/raspberry-vi
Administrative contact: <mike.ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Raspberry Pi and the Raspberry Pi logo are trademarks of the Raspberry Pi
Foundation.
This list is not affiliated to the Raspberry Pi Foundation and the views and
attitudes expressed by the subscribers to this list do not reflect those of
the Foundation.
Mike Ray, list creator, January 2013
===========================================================
The raspberry-vi mailing list
Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/raspberry-vi
Administrative contact: <mike.ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Raspberry Pi and the Raspberry Pi logo are trademarks of the Raspberry Pi
Foundation.
This list is not affiliated to the Raspberry Pi Foundation and the views and
attitudes expressed by the subscribers to this list do not reflect those of
the Foundation.
Mike Ray, list creator, January 2013
===========================================================
The raspberry-vi mailing list
Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/raspberry-vi
Administrative contact: <mike.ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Raspberry Pi and the Raspberry Pi logo are trademarks of the Raspberry Pi
Foundation.
This list is not affiliated to the Raspberry Pi Foundation and the views and
attitudes expressed by the subscribers to this list do not reflect those of
the Foundation.
Mike Ray, list creator, January 2013
