Hi Jessica,
here is my take about CLI vs GUI.
A bit of backround: I am a 71 year old retired organizer, trainer and project
management consultant.
I am sighted but maintain one of the most, if not the most, accessible Linux
distributions out of the box, based on Slackware, as I really like systems'
integration.
I used a PC (then called in French "mini-ordinateur") for the first time in
1977 if I remember well.
It was a DTC Microfile with two 8 inches floppy disk readers, a 10M hard disk
and 6K bytes of RAM and a 8080 CPU.
It has a custom OS, a 80*24 black and white CRT and indeed neither GUI nor
mouse.
Fast forward: when Windows replaced MS-DOS I observed a significant decrease of
productivity among some of my colleagues, when using a word processor.
Why? Just because when you know the keyboard shortuts it's way faster to
perform actions with a keybord than with a mouse.
While I understand that some software really need a GUI, like e.f GIMP or
Inkscape, and others with a GUI have more features than their CLI conterparts
like Firefox, I am still wondering why some blind users are more at ease with a
GUI than with a CLI for tasks that can be done with both, like text editing or
coding, as they can't use a mouse anyway.
However many coders, be they blind or sighted, do not use a mouse often, even
if the software has an optional GUI, like VIM vs GVIM or Emacs vs Xemacs, just
because using keyboard shortcuts is faster that using a mouse.
I can think of two reasons for blind folks to use a GUI when they could be more
productive using a GUI:
1. They are acquainted to a GUI because that's what they got first (think:
casual Windows or Ubuntu users).
2. Using the command line needs some learning that they do not have the time or
the will to get.
Just my 2 cents.
Didier
Le 19/03/2020 à 11:11, Jessica a écrit :
Devin. I just read your blog post.===========================================================
It seems to me your focused on the GUI. Something I can't simply stand. So I
am coming to it from the command line view.
Excellent post btw. And I understand some of your concerns.
My concern as linux stands right now on top of your concerns is how long will
the current screen readers stick around.
This is why I am on the hunt for another. Or possibly making my own.
One thing that is frustrating me about linux in general is everyone is going
GUI. They don't know how to work in anything else. Even linux distros that
are made for the blind in mind. Their first goal is of course orca with the
gui first. And of course command line secondary.
I do understand this as sighted people like graphics. And for some reason
blind people think they have to do everything the sighted person does.
Otherwise they will be left behind.
Before I continue. I feel this is a very valid subject. Thus is why I am
posting to the list and not you directly.
As Raspbian is linux and raspberry pi tends to work with linux OS's. I feel
this is quite appropriate.
First. Let me address your email problem. As I said edbrowse is clunky. But
one thing edbrowse has for it is the ability to only bring up the lines you
want to see when you want to see them.
Example, an email usually starts with three lines when replying to a message.
The subject, the reference numbers, the reply to address.
So I know. Line 4 is where I want to be to begin editing my response. So I
simply type 4 and press enter.
Since I am inserting text I simply press i and then enter. And type away.
Once done I type period on a blank line. the dot not the word and press enter.
Then I do .= to see what line I am on. Then I type
4,whatever-that-line-number is to review my message before I send it.
This may not seem fast to you. But to me it is extremely fast. Faster than
doing a flick up on my iphone to find more then reply or etc etc.
I could go on and on. Actually reading email on the iphone is almost annoying
now. I know there are work arounds to get what you want. But honestly there
shouldn't be work arounds. Or their shouldn't have to be.
I used to be a master of IOS. Not anymore. Others know far more than I do.
IOS is pretty good. But its not the command line. Although quite honestly its
much better to me than windows.
Let me briefly say about the mac. The mac interface has always been confusing
to me. Now having said that I didn't use one before mac os x or whatever the
version that came out after 2014 or 2015 came out. So I can't say whether or
not email is what it was back when I used it.
Reading email on the mac was ok to me. But I still didn't like it. I felt
like I was wading through tons of text to just get what I wanted.
The mutt email client in linux came close to what I wanted. And of course
emacs when I got it working that is. But the problem with emacs and emacspeak
is if you don't do things just right it doesn't work and web browsing I never
got that working quite right. And not for lack of trying.
I think I really need to do a course on emacspeak to really get it working
and properly and as well as I know it can.
I guess you can do tons with vim too. But the only thing I ever accomplished
with either is just editing files. And I usually used vim for that purpose
because colon wq was a lot easier to remember than emacs commands at the time.
So what draws me to the command line mode.
First of all. Most things can be done in the command line mode even today.
Edbrowse has simple support for java script web browsing for example. And web
pages that won't come up in lynx do come up in edbrowse.
Sure I have to do a letter type here or there to get what I want. But its
faster because if I know what line the text is on that I want I simply type
that line number and hit enter and I am there.
As I gave in the example far above. If I know the line numbers in anything I
want to read I simply type the first number followed by a comma and then the
last number and hit enter and it will read only that info to me. No fooling
around trying to get text read etc.
I don't have to leap through tons of text. The info I need comes right up.
And I cut my usage time I would say 50 percent or more. Giving me ultimately
more time to do what I have to do in the day.
Of course there always exceptions to that rule. And you need to know a
website pretty well to accomplish this goal effectively and efficiently. But
it does work. And it does save time.
1. command line is direct. You don't go through menus/dialogs/etc to get what
you want. You type it in and your there. And with edbrowse as a tool in some
cases that makes things easier as well.
2. Depending on your typing speed the command line can be quite fast. All it
takes is a willingness to read manuals/online documentation/etc to get the
proper info you need and once you learn whatever it sticks with you.
3. You can program in almost every programming language using the command
line. I think even apple's recent language has a command line version out
there. I installed it on arch. Something I could never do on the mac. In the
command line it works beautifully. Granted you need to know the code. But you
need to know code anyway if your going to be a great programmer.
4. GUI's basicly allow one to get at the info that in linux or BSD for
example is already at the command line. It mainly is to make it look nicer
and more appealing really. Or for programmers. Quicker (although I don't
understand how). Programming in a GUI of any type slows me down rather than
speeds me up. And personally it doesn't teach you true programming. And most
people taking the GUI approach to programming if viewing actual code they
would be stuck I think.
5. When it comes right down to it. I think its a matter of personal
interest/perspective/etc. For me GUI's have never appealed. The only one that
comes close to me appreciating is IOS. I started with the command line and
quite honestly I will end with the command line most likely. As long as I can
always have access to it.
That having been said. I do understand some people do do better with GUI's.
Me for example. I am at home in the CLI. Put me in a GUI. I can definitely
use it. In most cases. But I will be grumbling all the way. Put me in CLI
sure there are learning curves ETC. But I know given enough time I will learn
it and I will be much happier. And please understand it took me twenty plus
years to finally realize this about myself.
But some people are the same way about CLI. They just can't grasp it. No
matter how hard they try. To them they do not understand how the CLI can be
faster. And I have seen some blind people speed through a GUI like its
nothing. Whereas I would be like really. What are they missing by doing that.
I want every detail. I don't want to skip over text unless like on web pages
etc it should be skipped over. Whereas some people don't mind skipping over
text and they get what they want a lot faster in a GUI than I ever would.
There are people I would recommend to the CLI and some I would recommend to
the GUI. And its not based on speed. Its based on what I believe would work
best for that person.
Again GUI programming for example brings together basicly the similar content
you need to make a program/web page/etc so you don't have to type all that
out. I get it. I would rather type the stuff out. It helps me learn things
better. And it also lets me test things as I go to get a good understanding
of how things work. Something I personally could never do via a GUI
simplified programming interface.
Back to edbrowse. I don't want to be like those sort of pushing fenrir lol.
But it is very powerful. I should be able to delete lines I don't want in
less time than it would ever take on a gui by simply typing 5 or so
characters and hitting enter. Wham they are gone. Problem is I am still
learning it. So I don't remember those commands and right now I am only
deleting one line at a time.
But once I learn that. You won't see all that extra text in emails from me to
the list that I replied too. Only the relevant content like Rich does.
But edbrowse isn't for everyone like the CLI isn't for everyone.
As for the GUI in linux. I have never been all that impressed as you say most
of those projects disappear. Why I don't know sigh. Lack of funding? Why fund
them. If you want to really produce something for the blind don't do it for
funding. Do it just because. It will stay around a lot longer. And people
will maybe be interested in it more.
Also. A misconception about linux command line that I come across a lot is
"You have to be able to program to use the command line."
I could set up a raspberry pi for a friend of mine if I wanted too and send
it to her. Teach her a few commands. Give her a braille translated manual in
liblouis. And I could set this up in a half hour or less. And she wouldn't
have to learn much of anything except a few commands. And quite honestly her
word processing problem would be solved for the most part. Her email would be
faster to read. ETC etc.
But I will never get her to use it unless I gave it to her. Because she is
just so used to the GUI. But I am sure once she learned it she would use it
and not use GUI but for a few things.
A lot of it is just misconceptions and misunderstanding of CLI.
I don't think I was too repetative in this email.
Again. It comes down to personal preference. I personally believe blind
schools should have raspberry PI's as part of their computer lab. I wish I
had the money to provide them. I would also give basic training on how to use
them set them up etc. Because I don't think most people know about linux and
those who do are only because they run into people like you and I. you
referring to anyone on this list.
So they don't know they have a choice. They aren't given the opportunity to
learn. They aren't aware that at least up to maybe five ten years ago most
businesses computer systems (big places) got managed from the command line. I
don't know how it is today. But I am guessing there are tons of businesses
using BSD or linux to maintain their machine. Debian has a list. I don't
know if BSD does or not. And those are only the listed ones. I am guessing
there are many businesses/organizations using linux as their computer systems
that need to still be managed via command line. Opening a ton of possible
doors to blind people especially. If your trained right and can use the CLI.
Even with just brltty. You have a possible unlimitless number of job
opportunities. And I am guessing but some of which you could manage from your
own house. Although they might not want that for security purposes.
Lack of knowledge. Lack of experience, Lack of choice are the problems why
more people aren't using linux. That is really what it comes down too.
Whether you promote GUI or CLI.
Way too long of a post. But I hoped it might have helped you some. now to see
if I can delete these extra lines in a clump like I am supposed to be able to
do LOL.
Sincerely,
Jessica
PS I did it. I deleted all the unnecessary lines. and it took only 7 chars to
do. Twice because I wasn't paying attention the first time. Now I can keep my
messages clean!. Yay!
Now if only I could stop edbrowse from automatically saving my list email
rofl.
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